Digital scale recommendations

[Robinhood]

I will never argue about .1 being close enough for 100 yard groups, Why why even weigh for 100. Drop and go. Once you get to 400 and longer you will see this no longer holds true. If you are in a wide node you may get away with .1. out to 3 or 400. If you shoot 600 and longer competition against strong shooters and you think measuring to less than .05 is stupid, you're hanging around to cheer somebody else getting the trophy. Don't take my word for it. Ask any top shooter.

If your case hold 70 plus grains it will without question not make as much as a difference.

[NF1E]

[QUOTE=NF1E;490559]

Not new math. If you check the calibration of a weighing device that is designed and calibrated for .1 Using .02 weight kernals the first kernel in the pan will still show zero. The second kernel will show zero. The Third kernel with an actual weight of .06 the scale will read .1, as you continue to .08 then .1 and .12 then 1.4 at the 7th kernel it is still reading .1. Now, the 8th kernel at .16 will read .2. If that is new math maybe so. Or a lack of understanding of resolution. One of the two.


I have done that test. With the Matchmaster accuracy of the delivered load is supposed to be +- .04 gn in the match mode but if you watch the actual scale, it is accurate to .02. Empty pan zeroed and a kernal of Varget is .02 gn. This is why I moved up from Chargemasters to the Matchmaster.

[Txhillbilly]

Shot these targets today at 100 yds with handloaded ammo in one of my homebuilt M14 10 dot rifles. Works for me.


806280638064


If you're happy with groups that size, more power to you. I expect a lot more out of my gun's and ammo at 100 yards in order to shoot small groups when shooting out to 1000+ yards.
I've tried several of the Electronic powder dispenser's and Digital scales over the years, and always go back to using my beam scale.

The only digital scale that I would buy now is the A&D FX120i, along with Auto Tickler setup. I just haven't convinced myself to drop the coin for it.

[NF1E]

If you're happy with groups that size, more power to you. I expect a lot more out of my gun's and ammo at 100 yards in order to shoot small groups when shooting out to 1000+ yards.
I've tried several of the Electronic powder dispenser's and Digital scales over the years, and always go back to using my beam scale.

The only digital scale that I would buy now is the A&D FX120i, along with Auto Tickler setup. I just haven't convinced myself to drop the coin for it.


Ok, let's see your 10 rnd 100 yd groups with an M14 that are better. Of coarse I wouldn't accept any groups like that if they were fired from one of my bolt rifles. For bolts I look for anything around .25 -.4 for a start.
The Matchmaster suits my purposes very well. I know most real Texans can outshoot us Yankees, or so they say.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Good thing we all don't think alike. There wouldn't be anything to talk about.
And after seeing those M1A targets, I have some work to do. ;)
As it is now, I just wouldn't want to be down range when the call was made, "range is hot".

[yobuck]

I will never argue about .1 being close enough for 100 yard groups, Why why even weigh for 100. Drop and go. Once you get to 400 and longer you will see this no longer holds true. If you are in a wide node you may get away with .1. out to 3 or 400. If you shoot 600 and longer competition against strong shooters and you think measuring to less than .05 is stupid, you're hanging around to cheer somebody else getting the trophy. Don't take my word for it. Ask any top shooter.

If your case hold 70 plus grains it will without question not make as much as a difference.
What kind of dies are the top shooters using?
If you had to choose one, would it be (precise) powder charges, or straight ammo?

[99 K 30-30]

Folks I know that shoot at 1000 use Wilson, Redding bushing and Forster.
IMHO powder charge weight comes in BEHIND: rifle quality, optics quality, case prep/segregation. bullet selection, reloading tool quality, shooter ability.
In my 6.5-300 BEE and 338 RUM, I WEIGH charges RCBS Chargemaster) of RL 33 and THROW charges of H869 (RCBS measure with Ebay weight). Chunks of pencil lead vs sand control that choice.

[7kings]

Folks I know that shoot at 1000 use Wilson, Redding bushing and Forster.
IMHO powder charge weight comes in BEHIND: rifle quality, optics quality, case prep/segregation. bullet selection, reloading tool quality, shooter ability.
In my 6.5-300 BEE and 338 RUM, I WEIGH charges RCBS Chargemaster) of RL 33 and THROW charges of H869 (RCBS measure with Ebay weight). Chunks of pencil lead vs sand control that choice.

Not sure I understand. Just because something might rate lower on the list of items that impact accuracy, does that mean we should ignore it until we've checked all the other items on the list? I'm thinking that everything has a cumulative effect, so might as well try to do what we can.

I can't afford to shell out a few grand (at least) right now for a rifle and another thousand (at least) for a a scope, but that doesn't mean I can't pay attention to the other things that will help the accuracy, right? Case selection and prep, powder consistency, seating depth consistency, etc... all have some impact on accuracy and are cheap to pay attention to. So if I factor that into constantly striving to be a better shooter, I would expect to tighten my groups consistently.

Of course, I could be mistaken.

[Robinhood]

What kind of dies are the top shooters using?
If you had to choose one, would it be (precise) powder charges, or straight ammo?


Come one Yobuck, It does not matter what your charge is if your bullet is not true. Which would you rather have, Straight ammo or a concentric chamber? Rather than try to catch someone in a mistaken or misguided theory maybe you could post your belief and let it be.

You know that accuracy is the aggregate of all things being the best they can be including the shooter. You can send out bunnies all day long to let the beagles go crazy, but i don't see any reason to try to bait someone into exposing their ignorance. It is better to promote and help others learn or challenge their beliefs with facts rather than attempt to get them to error. If I am wrong prove it. Prove it at the range with 60 rounds for score. Do it with similar equipment.

If you want to talk concentric ammo we can talk about it. I will even send you pictures of the stand I made for checking RO if you need it. I use a half thousands test indicator and I measure somewhere between the ogive and the tip, mostly closer to the tip. If you want to see my 2 scale setup I will send you pictures. My charges are usually weighed a minimum of three times.(If I cared to spend more money I could do it in one check.) Do you want to see my case sorting process? I'll send you those pics too.

As for the best dies, it tends to vary quite a bit with discipline and I don't hang with BR guys, but I see Wilson, Sinclair, Whidden and even Forster. I reamed a full length sizing die for the necks on LC 308 brass that makes ammo almost as good as my Forster Match dies for FTR. Lee Collet dies will make good ammo but in my mind it is hard on necks. I have Whidden and Sinclair too some make good ammo some where not right for my brass and make lousy ammo. Im sure if I would have been more careful in my purchase or changed my brass prep it would make better ammo. My feelings on dies is a custom full length sizing die will give you the best ammo. Whoever makes it...I would prefer John Whidden's stuff.

One thing that can affect your score as much as anything when shooting for score is an action that has a heavy bolt lift. You will spend more time resetting the position of your rifle when it is upset by a stiff lift. You may never realize this unless you are shooting multiple rounds on a windy day.

Leaving a round in the chamber waiting for flags to align once the barrel has warmed up will change your POI. Always leave that round out of battery until the flags are right when the barrel is hot.

No one thing puts you in the x ring for 20 shots.

[yobuck]

Come one Yobuck, It does not matter what your charge is if your bullet is not true. Which would you rather have, Straight ammo or a concentric chamber? Rather than try to catch someone in a mistaken or misguided theory maybe you could post your belief and let it be.

You know that accuracy is the aggregate of all things being the best they can be including the shooter. You can send out bunnies all day long to let the beagles go crazy, but i don't see any reason to try to bait someone into exposing their ignorance. It is better to promote and help others learn or challenge their beliefs with facts rather than attempt to get them to error. If I am wrong prove it. Prove it at the range with 60 rounds for score. Do it with similar equipment.

If you want to talk concentric ammo we can talk about it. I will even send you pictures of the stand I made for checking RO if you need it. I use a half thousands test indicator and I measure somewhere between the ogive and the tip, mostly closer to the tip. If you want to see my 2 scale setup I will send you pictures. My charges are usually weighed a minimum of three times.(If I cared to spend more money I could do it in one check.) Do you want to see my case sorting process? I'll send you those pics too.

As for the best dies, it tends to vary quite a bit with discipline and I don't hang with BR guys, but I see Wilson, Sinclair, Whidden and even Forster. I reamed a full length sizing die for the necks on LC 308 brass that makes ammo almost as good as my Forster Match dies for FTR. Lee Collet dies will make good ammo but in my mind it is hard on necks. I have Whidden and Sinclair too some make good ammo some where not right for my brass and make lousy ammo. Im sure if I would have been more careful in my purchase or changed my brass prep it would make better ammo. My feelings on dies is a custom full length sizing die will give you the best ammo. Whoever makes it...I would prefer John Whidden's stuff.

One thing that can affect your score as much as anything when shooting for score is an action that has a heavy bolt lift. You will spend more time resetting the position of your rifle when it is upset by a stiff lift. You may never realize this unless you are shooting multiple rounds on a windy day.

Leaving a round in the chamber waiting for flags to align once the barrel has warmed up will change your POI. Always leave that round out of battery until the flags are right when the barrel is hot.

No one thing puts you in the x ring for 20 shots.
Well then why are we even having a discussion like this on this site?
Besides you, how many others here will be waiting for all the flags to align before sending their next round?
I suspect not very many.
The thing that bothers me the most about all this is that we are constantly being reminded of what we (cant ) do, unless we do things like loading for example in a certain way. I happen to know better, but how many others dont?
While perfection might be the goal of some, it isnt the goal of all of us.
And for those who do seek that, it certainly dosent start with a cheap factory rifle.
Which brings about the question of just how good is good enough at least for most of us.
And the fact is that average Joe who can shoot an inch or better group at 100 yards with his gun and ammo from a bench, will be surprised as to just how well he will do at the longer distances also.
And for hunting at least we dont need 20 shots in the X ring, one will usually be enough.
And fact is that average Joe can do that, even at the longer distances with less than perfect loads in unsorted brass.

[Robinhood]

[QUOTE=Robinhood;490593]


I have done that test. With the Matchmaster accuracy of the delivered load is supposed to be +- .04 gn in the match mode but if you watch the actual scale, it is accurate to .02. Empty pan zeroed and a kernal of Varget is .02 gn. This is why I moved up from Chargemasters to the Matchmaster.


And a good move that was.

[Robinhood]

Well then why are we even having a discussion like this on this site?
Besides you, how many others here will be waiting for all the flags to align before sending their next round?
I suspect not very many.
The thing that bothers me the most about all this is that we are constantly being reminded of what we (cant ) do, unless we do things like loading for example in a certain way. I happen to know better, but how many others dont?
While perfection might be the goal of some, it isnt the goal of all of us.
And for those who do seek that, it certainly dosent start with a cheap factory rifle.
Which brings about the question of just how good is good enough at least for most of us.
And the fact is that average Joe who can shoot an inch or better group at 100 yards with his gun and ammo from a bench, will be surprised as to just how well he will do at the longer distances also.
And for hunting at least we dont need 20 shots in the X ring, one will usually be enough.
And fact is that average Joe can do that, even at the longer distances with less than perfect loads in unsorted brass.

I will quote this from the OP
However, now that I've started handloading rifle rounds on a single-stage and throwing powder from a separate powder measure and trickler, I find them both lacking. The digital isn't consistent enough or sensitive enough for the trickler, and the beam is slow to use and not as convenient. I know there are several digital offerings out there, but I'm not interested in spending money on another one that isn't going to work well for me.

And the reason I asked how close do you want to be. Most hunters would say .5 grain


I agree for most people. Some do ask about group improvement though. They ask specific questions about equipment etc.... To say that nothing matters, get within one grain and squeeze works for you. You have already stated you don't shoot very many rounds a year. Thats good for you. Some guys go out and shoot 20 -50 rounds or even more at the range and are asking themselves why their groups are so big as they hear of guys shooting 1/2 MOA or better out to 400 yards. They use range pickup brass and a powder drop and shoot 2MOA. To improve with that setup takes some eye opening.

It is much more simple if you understand. Buy good brass. Anneal when you feel bullet seating change(Something you wont feel shooting twice or three rounds a year) meaning good consistent neck tension, get good powder charges. Get good ES and tune your seating depth or get a barrel tuner.

None of this matters for a guy who is shooting at large ungulates at close to mid range. Dogtown shooters want a little more but the guy that has access to only a range looks to improve groups will have to up his game. It only gets complicated when you are using components that compromise your goals.

I have never seen you discuss target shooting yobuck, just one cold bore shot and maybe a follow up for a poor first shot. There is little I disagree with you in principle, at least for the discipline you shoot. You have no interest in target shooting but you love long range hunting. Something I wish I could share with you in that beautiful state of yours. I recognize my opinions mean little to a guy who cares nothing about the type of shooting I did. So you must understand that cartridges that use from 23 to 45 grains where the shooter is firing his brass 10-15 times a year might need to pay a little more attention to detail than you.

[yobuck]

I will quote this from the OP

And the reason I asked how close do you want to be. Most hunters would say .5 grain


I agree for most people. Some do ask about group improvement though. They ask specific questions about equipment etc.... To say that nothing matters, get within one grain and squeeze works for you. You have already stated you don't shoot very many rounds a year. Thats good for you. Some guys go out and shoot 20 -50 rounds or even more at the range and are asking themselves why their groups are so big as they hear of guys shooting 1/2 MOA or better out to 400 yards. They use range pickup brass and a powder drop and shoot 2MOA. To improve with that setup takes some eye opening.

It is much more simple if you understand. Buy good brass. Anneal when you feel bullet seating change(Something you wont feel shooting twice or three rounds a year) meaning good consistent neck tension, get good powder charges. Get good ES and tune your seating depth or get a barrel tuner.

None of this matters for a guy who is shooting at large ungulates at close to mid range. Dogtown shooters want a little more but the guy that has access to only a range looks to improve groups will have to up his game. It only gets complicated when you are using components that compromise your goals.

I have never seen you discuss target shooting yobuck, just one cold bore shot and maybe a follow up for a poor first shot. There is little I disagree with you in principle, at least for the discipline you shoot. You have no interest in target shooting but you love long range hunting. Something I wish I could share with you in that beautiful state of yours. I recognize my opinions mean little to a guy who cares nothing about the type of shooting I did. So you must understand that cartridges that use from 23 to 45 grains where the shooter is firing his brass 10-15 times a year might need to pay a little more attention to detail than you.
Well fact is that i do understand all that perfectly.
Some of my best friends are or had been l/r target shooters, including my every day hunting buddy.
Ive been to Williamsport numerous times as both a shooter and a spectator.
It just made no sence to me to drive several hours each way, shoot 10 shots, then try to wear out my barrel with a cleaning rod as they all do.
On top of that, most of them walking around there never seem very happy. lol
One of my friends told me years ago that id never win anything with the way i load.
But he never did either at least imop.

There are lots of different breeds of cats, and it takes a certain one to be a serious target shooter.
And i dont mean that disrespectfully.
Others might try to become that breed, but it rarely works well very long.
But it dosent also mean that the other breeds cant be good shooters also, depending on who’s definition of good.
Listen, at age 85 Frank Weber is the oldest shooter still shooting at Williamsport as he has done since the beginning.
Both he and his son Scott have held records there and maybe still do.
They also have a camp very close to ours.
But fact is that we have kids at our camp that have killed more long range deer than they have.
Earl Chronister was a group record holder also, and his camps deer kill record was even worse than Franks.
Ask Kevin Cram about all that, he’s a neighbor also.
If you go back about 15/20 years, you will find that Bruce Baer was the go to gunsmith at Williamsport.
Frank Weber for one held a world group record with a gun built by Bruce.
Today he dosent even go there.
When i asked him why a few years back, he said thank god i dont need that bunch any more.
Have the many long range hunters in Pa benefited as for knowledge as a result of the Williamsport club being there?
Well the truth be told, not very much.
Dont forget, it was long range hunters who started that club in the first place, not the other way round.
At this point, Kevin Crams group are the most successful in our area as for kill numbers.
And the reason is that first and foremost they are young, also very good at what they do, and they use very good equipment.
A conversation with a person like Kevin or Bruce might be very enlightening to someone interested in that type of long range shooting.

[Robinhood]

There is no question you get burned out on the competition. I did. However, improving your group size doesn't mean you want to compete. My best friend is not interested in wasting his time but still shoots long range. He anneals, He weighs his loads closely and he uses a lab radar and Quickload. He is not competition geared and he loves to hit small plates at 600 and beyond. He primarily hunts and takes his son and daughter with him. His philosophy on load workup, precision and accuracy are the same as mine. Maybe more so, but I started first.


Sorry for hijacking the thread. Jim, if you feel the need you can delete all of this.

[charlie b]

It is just all a difference in what we are trying to do with our own shooting. Some will never have the opportunity to shoot at longer ranges, some of us can do it on a regular basis. I'm limited to 1000yd unless I take a trip up to Raton or find some other private range. My load development is at 200yd.

I will never be a 'bug hole' shooter (consistently 1/2MOA or better). I do kinda balance how much time I spend making my ammo and the expectations I have at the range. No, I don't want to spend several thousand on a rifle or hundreds of dollars on a scale, etc, etc.

Which is kinda where my interest in this thread is at. I've used laboratory scales that measure much smaller differences than we are doing here, but, they are much more than I would want to spend and take much too long (settling time once door on weight chamber is closed).

So, where is the difference in performance and at what price. Yes, the cheap digitals work ok, but, I know mine is not great. And I know if I want to spend several hundred dollars I can get a scale that will be reliable and more accurate (0.01gn maybe). What do I gain in between those two and at what cost?

PS yes I do wait for the 'wind flags' to settle before shooting sometimes, or at least all point in the same direction :)

[Dave Hoback]

I’m certainly not competition focused. Shoot for fun, and camradery of all this.


Brian, reloading scales are one of those things I don’t dump a whole lot of money in. A scale is a wickedly simple device! All the extra money in the more expensive options go to extra features like memory, etc., and faster resolution/sensitivity. Great for those looking to save time. I just use a Frankfort digital scale. Think it was like $40 when I got it. And I compare it to my old Lee beam scale every so often. It’s been accurate in my loading. I’m never in when reloading, and as Robin pointed out, I have no problem checking weight 3 times to make certain. I find reloading quite enjoyable, so it’s never about “getting to the end” for me.

[NF1E]

Shot this today with handloaded ammo in one of my M14 dot rifles. Fun for an autoloader for sure at 100 yds. Dots are 1" diameter.







80768077

[Dave Hoback]

What?? Off topic much?

[7kings]

I’m certainly not competition focused. Shoot for fun, and camradery of all this.


Brian, reloading scales are one of those things I don’t dump a whole lot of money in. A scale is a wickedly simple device! All the extra money in the more expensive options go to extra features like memory, etc., and faster resolution/sensitivity. Great for those looking to save time. I just use a Frankfort digital scale. Think it was like $40 when I got it. And I compare it to my old Lee beam scale every so often. It’s been accurate in my loading. I’m never in when reloading, and as Robin pointed out, I have no problem checking weight 3 times to make certain. I find reloading quite enjoyable, so it’s never about “getting to the end” for me.

I just had to RE-reload 20 rounds that I was assembling to see if I could find a powder charge that the rifle and bullet liked. Because the FA digital scale doesn't seem to like to respond very well to trickling AND has been giving me inconsistent results (sometimes several tenths of a grain in variance with the same pan and powder, just lifting it up and setting it back down), I pulled the 5-0-5 down from the shelf and used that. It was great for accuracy and sensitivity (obviously), but it does take a lot longer to stop swinging and settle on a weight than I wish. Maybe a different beam scale would be better in this respect - not sure?

On an unrelated note: Fun lesson learned - it always pays to read the instructions for a new set of dies and never assume anything. I didn't realize that my Redding Premium Series seating Die has a crimp ring. Setting it up the way many other seating dies are typically set (run it down to meet the raised shell plate and back the micrometer adjustment off so you can get your depth set) caused an over-crimp situation and deformed the cases where the shoulder meets the body, since I wasn't intending to crimp and wasn't seating to the depth of the cannelure. I didn't notice it upon initial inspection and they all passed muster with my L. E. Wilson case gauge. It was only when I was doing final inspection and attempted to test-chamber one in my rifle that I realized something wasn't right (i.e., the bolt wasn't interested in closing on the cartridge). Solution was simple (and documented in the Redding instructions, I have to admit) - if you don't want to crimp, spin the die to meet the shell holder, then back it off 1-2 turns and lock it down, using the micrometer to set the seating depth. End-result of this fun little learning experience? Pulled the bullets, recovered the powder, CAREFULLY deprimed the cases, then chucked the brass and started over again.

It wasn't that big of a deal, and at least I wasn't at the end of a hundred-case run or anything, but more of a DUH moment...

[charlie b]

He is simply demonstrating his accuracy level using his methods.