Digital scale recommendations

[charlie b]

Well there is nothing like a soft kick in the pants to do some searching on scales. Looked up Gempro (who do not sell direct), found a vendor, and voila! A cornucopia of scales!!! And some at very decent prices. FWIW, .001gm is 0.015gn, more than enough for even the pickiest of pickers when reloading. Even some lower price Ohaus and A&D scales.

https://www.oldwillknottscales.com/0.001-gram-precision-scales.html

[NF1E]

Been quite enjoyable over the years seeing comparisons of difference powder measures and scales. For my purposes the digital dispensers have been great. Still have some of the old fashioned balance scales in the shop but they tend to just collect dust.

First auto disp for me was a Lyman 1200 DPS worked ok but too many over and under drops. Next was the RCBS Chargemaster. After modifications to the disp tube it is great for +- .1 charges. Finally tried the RCBS Matchmaster on a suggestion from another practical precision shooter. Buy once , cry once. What a machine. Accurate to .02 with auto drops better than +- .04 right out of the box.


8085

[charlie b]

Yep, I wish I could justify one of the automated setups. I am retired and shoot less than 100rnds a week. Time is not that big a deal anymore for my rifle reloading. So, for me it is drop a charge and trickle up. I consider over $200 too much and would really like one close to $100 that is fast, repeatable and does not drift. Weights to less than .1gn is a bonus.

[yobuck]

Yobuck. On most powder drops i've seen there is an adjustment screw to alter the size of the powder chamber. I have 2, One is an RCBS and one is a Harrells Premium. So I know this to be true. How do you adjust your drops for accuracy. All of them have lines and numbers on the adjustment screws for what...reference?

You like to downplay measuring for weight like powder charge amounts are not important. I know you don't believe that but I feel like you leave that out for a reason. Do you throw a random powder and a random weight or is there a process? I ask because if your not working with consistent powder charges whether it be by volume or weight it is out of ignorance. Once you start working up your load with a volume powder measure the process starts stringing out. Both processes now become, at the minimum slightly cumbersome for a reloaded. In all of you post about reloading all of that information is absent. Its like dump it in the measure and drop the powder put the bullet in and go shoot a deer at 500 yards and take the heart out. Nope.

Lets look at reality. If you are shooting at a range and loading at home. Pick your powder. Buy your accurate powder measure shipped to your house for $290( price you would never consider paying for a scale. Drop 3 or 5 charges at one volume. Then do same for maybe 5 more charges while slightly turning the volume screw. You document the loads volume reference number. You go to the range and test. Fail, nothing better than an inch. Whats you next move? What brings you satisfaction? Is 1" at 100 god enough? 5" at 300? What are you after. Tell the tale brother.

When we look at that process is there really that much difference? For me it is about where you want to be. Again shooting the absolute best your rifle will give you. Powder measure powder measure or charge weight. you still have to find the node. People much smarter than me have proved that. Aaaand, I have yet to see someone come on here and say " My new Savage rifle is shooting 1.5 MOA, I couldn't be happier!. Who could want anything better".

Don't bother telling me how you threw some Reloder 15 in a 7mm STW and it shot 1/4 MOA. I don't buy it. Don't be like the main stream media and leave out all the facts to create a narrative. Tell the whole story my friend, it is about progress not regression.
OK, but first off i dont own a 7 STW, but i do own 2 7x300 Wetherbys which are pretty much identical as for performance to the STW.

My introduction to reloading took place when i was 14 years old, which is now 72 years ago.
My father had been invited to a mans house who was reloading his own ammo, and i tagged along.
They had only recently met within the preceding year as a result of my father joining a small bore rifle club.
That by the way was also my introduction to Unertle scopes and others like them.
They both shot 30/06 rifles, and my father was interested in getting into reloading.
The mans name was George, and he sold Chevys for a living.
He had a Pacific C type reloading press, and used Pacific dies.
Remember, At that time RCBS had not yet been created.
A man by name of Fred Huntington, well known in the shooting world later formed RCBS.
George also used a Redding beam scale and a Belding & Mull powder measure, made in Phillipsburg Pa.
Belding & Mull uses the drop tube system, in that the powder is dropped from the device into an adjustable tube, and then dumped onto the scale or directly into the case via a funnel.
So you do initially weigh charges untill you get the drop tube adjusted properly.
And the accuracy of the individual charges can of coarse be affected by the type powder used.
So within a short period of time my father owned an identical setup as George had.
And today i am still using the same powder measure and scale.
I have had some custom drop tubes made for some of the larger cartridges i use.
Otherwise id be double dropping the charge.
When George set the die for the seating depth on my fathers gun, he partially seated the bullet, used a match to smoke it up, then took the gun outside and closed the bolt on the round. He then made several die adjustment while repeating the process.
I dont own a comparator today, i still use the same process, but i dont use a charged case as he did.
I keep a dummy round for each bullet for future die adjustments, so finding the seating depth for a bullet is a one and done situation anyway.
I also use an old case for a case length gauge for each cartridge and adjust the trimmer to that case.
I also have an old Lyman 55 powder measure that is pretty accurate, and i use that for the direct dropping into cases because its both easier and faster. My loading blocks for the small cases hold 50, and i go straight down the line dropping all 50 before i stop. I look into each case to assure none were missed and that they look consistent.
And i do occaissionaly check one on the scale. At least before i drop the next 50. lol
And i do in fact also own a trickeler for the large cases and the large grain powder.
For the wildcat cartridges, my gunsmith told me what to load and where to start as for charge weight.
Otherwise id be at the mercy of the experts on gunsites. lol
As for the maximum load, the gun will always tell me that, but i will have been told where that will pretty much be also.
I dont load for bug hole groups, and dont even care about trying.
My loads are all even number charges, like 43 gr, 65 gr, 87 gr, etc.
Naturally im happier with a smaller group right off, but i will usually accept anything under an inch for at least a start, and will try seating depth before i change the powder charge if im not happy.
From there i will go for a small rock on the hillside opposite our camp at 5 hundred yards or so.
The important thing for us is how the gun and the load will repeat shot after shot at that distance.
So yes, it is essentially group shooting at distance.
We rarely shoot beyond 1500 yards with any of the guns we have including the 338s and we dont even do that very often.
If we happen to be hunting at a place offering a long shot opportunity, we have been known to send a few before we leave.
But its rare that we can hunt that far effectively anyway because of conditions.
We pick the spots we hunt based upon the conditions that day, not our desire for a particular type of shot.
And if i can dump the loads directly for my 223s and 22/250s and still hit the clay birds at 400 im also good with that.
You can call it whatever you like, but ill call it good enough, at least for me, and frankly lots of others in the area i hunt.

As for the first round hits, on deer up to about 800 its pretty much a given for a first round hit in the kill zone.
But that has much more to do with what we shoot, and how we shoot, than it does with how we load.
But with the method we use, that being using spotters with excellent tripod mounted optics, it would be rare that we dont know exactly where the shot went.
And that then becomes a sighter shot.
And we know how to use the dial on a scope to make a second round hit.
And so could anybody else if they worked at it.
Remember also that we hunt tree covered hillsides, the very good archers arent the only ones who sometimes have a shot spoiled by a tree branch.

So you guys can screw around with loads and tiny groups groups all you want o k.
But we just prefer to start our young boys with how to P -ss out to about 5 hundred yards.
And guess what we call those type shots? lol
Also how to use a gun and scope, and make good gravy.
Not so sure those cheap match trophys would work well as gravy bowls though. lol

[NF1E]

After retiring a few years ago I started paying more attention to my hobbies. Trying to eliminate variables has been a great step in improving performance on the firing line. I do keep an ear out for those with more time on the loading block for sure.

[7kings]

Man, that was a wall of text right there.

I think we've got it - you like to hunt and don't have much use for recreational target shooting and trying to get as small of a group as possible. If it doesn't end with an animal kill, it doesn't seem like it's worth your time.

Cool. You do you.

I enjoy lots of types of shooting (funny thing is that hunting doesn't happen to be one of them - no objection to it, just don't hunt, myself) and to each their own. Your preferred shooting discipline doesn't need anyone's approval, and nobody else's needs yours. As long as we're all out here doing our own thing and not hurting anyone, it's all good.

Question, though - do you really take 800-yard shots on a deer? I'm not a hunter, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I know a lot of hunters and know that most of them won't attempt a kill at those sorts of ranges. You can just about cover the vital organs on a whitetail with a single splayed hand - at those ranges, you're talking a perfect sub-MOA shot on target under less-than-ideal circumstances. I may have misunderstood and you might have just been using that as an example of what you could do with your setup. Just curious.

[charlie b]

yobuck,

Thanks for the narrative. Decades ago I limited myself to hunting loads and my techniques followed yours. Not long drop tubes, but, long enough. Rarely shot groups except to sight in the gun and determine where the holdover/adjustment for distance was.

Stopped hunting for a number of reasons, mostly due to all the drunks out here with guns. Found it more interesting to shoot at the range. I do like reactive targets like steel plates, clays, soda cans, milk jugs, etc. These days most of my time is spent trying to get sub-MOA with my cast bullets. I am close, except for the stupid fliers. Probably bad casts but it is frustrating. My .223 is jacketed only and is the one I try to keep at 1/2MOA or less. So, I try to reduce as much of the errors as I can. It is something I enjoy doing with the extra time I have on my hands these days.

Don't like to eat out of trophies. I just know that if I can hit the milk jug at 1000yd, then a deer, elk, etc would not survive an encounter :) (PS I probably would not take a shot at that range unless I was starving).

[NF1E]

yobuck,

Thanks for the narrative. Decades ago I limited myself to hunting loads and my techniques followed yours. Not long drop tubes, but, long enough. Rarely shot groups except to sight in the gun and determine where the holdover/adjustment for distance was.

Stopped hunting for a number of reasons, mostly due to all the drunks out here with guns. Found it more interesting to shoot at the range. I do like reactive targets like steel plates, clays, soda cans, milk jugs, etc. These days most of my time is spent trying to get sub-MOA with my cast bullets. I am close, except for the stupid fliers. Probably bad casts but it is frustrating. My .223 is jacketed only and is the one I try to keep at 1/2MOA or less. So, I try to reduce as much of the errors as I can. It is something I enjoy doing with the extra time I have on my hands these days.

Don't like to eat out of trophies. I just know that if I can hit the milk jug at 1000yd, then a deer, elk, etc would not survive an encounter :) (PS I probably would not take a shot at that range unless I was starving).


Good for you. My sentiments exactly. Used to put plenty of venison in the freezer when the kids were young. Haven't hunted in 30 years and found it really helps eliminate the dreams of SE Asia in the 60's when I was young. Must say if I saw a fool trying to take a deer from those distances, he would sure get a talking to about ethical hunting whether he liked it or not. You just can't cure stupid.

[yobuck]

The whole problem is that most people are quick to criticize things they actually know little or nothing about, or have no interest in learning or doing themselves.
Therefore it is wrong for everybody.
I believe that might be called ignorance of what the actual facts are.
Back in the 70s there was a Pa game commissioner from the part of the state i hunt who had similar views.
I wont bore all of you with the written arguments he and i had, his of coarse on official stationary.
But in the end he disgraced himself with his do as i say views on things which of coarse werent meant to include him.
The real long range train left the station many years ago before many here were born and the internet created.
And the passengers were mostly hunters.
We would never have the vast selection of things we have available to us today without long range hunters having paved the way.
Those are just facts, but you can ignore them if you wish, and it wont bother me.

[Robinhood]

Well then. Powder measure it is.

[charlie b]

You could just say that ALL firearms efforts started from hunters or soldiers. Shooting at targets was just a way to advance the skills needed by them in their pursuits.

Long range shooting, such as snipers during the US Revolution, Civil War, etc predates the PA 1000yd matches by a lot. Some of the buffalo hunters took longer shots (most did not). These meant there was a 'market' for long range guns. The only way to 'sell' those arms was through demonstrations of accuracy, ie, long range target shooting.

Then there is the follow on need to compare one person's skills to another. More target shooting. Then there were matches like the Creedmoor with competition between countries, etc, etc, etc.

The evolution of this goes to some people starting in target shooting and then migrating to hunting or the military.

[Dave Hoback]

LOL!:pop2::pop2:

Well, back in MY day, 19-AUGHT-Eleventy-Twelve....we had to shoot with our eyes closed, UPHILL.....And line up TWO deer because we couldn’t afford a second bullet. “Those were the days!”

[NF1E]

LOL!:pop2::pop2:

Well, back in MY day, 19-AUGHT-Eleventy-Twelve....we had to shoot with our eyes closed, UPHILL.....And line up TWO deer because we couldn’t afford a second bullet. “Those were the days!”

Couldn't afford bullets or a gun so snares did the job along with a good healthy club to end it.

[yobuck]

Well i think my challenge question was to explain my loading technique, or lack thereof and why.
At least thats how i interpreted it.
People did lots of things differently in the era i grew up and came of age.
Just because there are now different methods for doing things however dosent in itself mean its a better way.
For example we didnt have a little gadget you could just hold in your hand that would calculate every thing you needed to make an accurate shot at a distant target.
And ill admit that there are some of us who are too ignorant to accept or even try some of those things.

Hunting, regardless as to how you care to look at it is a barbaric endeavor.
We can try to justify it by any means or examples we care to use, BUT.
We are declaring war on a species without the means of defending itself other than by escaping.
If we as individuals can justify one method of killing them while at the same time condemning others, in itself allows for questioning.
There is no way we can justify one method over another other than to admit to having biased opinions for our own personal reasons.
I have personally never shot a bow of any type mainly because i chose not to for my own reasons.
But ive had many friends and also family members who are or were ardent archery hunters.
The conversation about hunting ethics could for sure become a very long and heated one i we chose to go there.

[charlie b]

Yep, it is all in what we choose to do. Some like to hunt, others do not. Some like to go to the range and blast away at handgun distances while others want to hit a 12" plate at a mile or more. All of the disciplines have different requirements on rifle, ammo, shooting techniques and reloading techniques. What one person considers a horrible shooting rifle could be considered a tack driver by another. Some insist on that last .01" of group size, others will never shoot a group at all. Some will spend whatever it takes to reach their goal. Others will get by as cheaply as possible. Add in some personal biases/preferences and there is a huge range of 'perfect' answers.

This discussion of scales is a perfect example of all of this. Some want an automated system that gives them loads measured in .01gn increments and cost doesn't matter. Others don't even need to use a scale, just a powder scoop that throws some amount of powder. And many are in between those two somewhere.

It doesn't mean any one answer is wrong, it is just what we want out of our hobby. Some seem to think that if you don't do it their way then you are wrong. Nothing further from the truth. Giving advice on a forum is just that. The advice may be good for you, but, not so good for another. If the person does not take your advice it does not mean the advice was 'bad' or incorrect. It just means the person wants something different for their purpose.

[7kings]

And by the way, I hope that my statement that I don't personally hunt isn't interpreted as that I have any sort of objection to hunting - I definitely don't, and I'm more than happy to enjoy some venison burgers or jerky. I just don't personally hunt - mostly because it's never been something I've taken much interest in.

I do believe that if a person is going to hunt, it's their responsibility that they do it ethically - if you aren't sure you can make a kill shot, don't squeeze the trigger (unless it's a survival situation, in which case, get whatever shot you can).

But that's just me.

[yobuck]

Man, that was a wall of text right there.

I think we've got it - you like to hunt and don't have much use for recreational target shooting and trying to get as small of a group as possible. If it doesn't end with an animal kill, it doesn't seem like it's worth your time.

Cool. You do you.

I enjoy lots of types of shooting (funny thing is that hunting doesn't happen to be one of them - no objection to it, just don't hunt, myself) and to each their own. Your preferred shooting discipline doesn't need anyone's approval, and nobody else's needs yours. As long as we're all out here doing our own thing and not hurting anyone, it's all good.

Question, though - do you really take 800-yard shots on a deer? I'm not a hunter, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I know a lot of hunters and know that most of them won't attempt a kill at those sorts of ranges. You can just about cover the vital organs on a whitetail with a single splayed hand - at those ranges, you're talking a perfect sub-MOA shot on target under less-than-ideal circumstances. I may have misunderstood and you might have just been using that as an example of what you could do with your setup. Just curious.
Sorry i missed your question.
Dont get the impression that hunters hunt because they enjoy killing things.
And that goes for all of them, for the most part at least, regardless as to what method they use.
There are quite a few people who have hunted for years and have never killed a deer.
And of coarse some who never will. lol
So why do they continue to go?
Pa is known to be one of the best places to go bear hunting in the entire country.
Yet most people who hunt them every year of their life will never get one, and may not even ever see one, at least while hunting for them.
So why do they continue to go?
As for hunting methods, take your pick, because there is more than just one way, and since each of us are different in our way of thinking, one method might be more appealing than another.
And frankly some might be better at one method or any method than others might be.
The most successful as for kill numbers, are usually the loners who know the area very well.
Serious long range hunting didnt gain any real traction untill the years following WW2, and the reason for that was optics.
The wars and the depression having ended had a big influence as well.
Good rangefinding devices were in use in WW1, and the same type was used in WW2.
They key however was the very large binoculars used in the war, especially by the Japs and Germans, and to a lesser degree the U S also.
After WW2 they began showing up at hunting locations in places like PA.
Dialing scopes however was no doubt the single biggest factor as for the success part for long range hunting.
Prior to about the mid 80s there were no traditional type scopes you could dial.
Only the target type scopes like Unertle and a few others were being used for that purpose.
As for the vital area for the killing of animals, tissue damage and blood loss is what causes animals to die.
A lung shot or a heart shot is as a rule considered the best location for those type results.
But dont be expecting a shot in the perfect location to be stopping an animal in its tracks.
And in populated areas it could also put another hunters tag on your deer.
Again, its a barbaric thing to kill an animal of any type for whatever reason.
And if it bothers you to see something die, then its best you just dont do it.

[charlie b]

Yes, hunting is barbaric as is being a soldier. Both are skills I think most should have.

When I hunted it was in large part just to get out in the woods with some friends/family. Many times I didn't bother shooting a deer as I am not that fond of venison. Same with most other game animals. Did some varmint work for a while but it was not of interest to me. Same with birds. I'd rather shoot trap/skeet than live birds.

Elk I would shoot. Meat is excellent and culling the herds is important to the ranchers out here.

But, hunter 'population' increased dramatically. One year went to normal elk lands and it looked like a KOA. Every flat spot had a tent or RV on it. Most of the hunters I ran into had been drinking. Some were barely able to walk. Didn't help that my son was with me but he also learned some valuable lessons, including not to argue with someone who is drunk and holding a rifle. Seems they figured the elk we shot was theirs cause they shot at it several times before us. That was my last hunt.

Apologies to the OP. We are about as far off the topic as one could get. At least we're still talking about guns and shooting :)

[yobuck]

Yes, hunting is barbaric as is being a soldier. Both are skills I think most should have.

When I hunted it was in large part just to get out in the woods with some friends/family. Many times I didn't bother shooting a deer as I am not that fond of venison. Same with most other game animals. Did some varmint work for a while but it was not of interest to me. Same with birds. I'd rather shoot trap/skeet than live birds.

Elk I would shoot. Meat is excellent and culling the herds is important to the ranchers out here.

But, hunter 'population' increased dramatically. One year went to normal elk lands and it looked like a KOA. Every flat spot had a tent or RV on it. Most of the hunters I ran into had been drinking. Some were barely able to walk. Didn't help that my son was with me but he also learned some valuable lessons, including not to argue with someone who is drunk and holding a rifle. Seems they figured the elk we shot was theirs cause they shot at it several times before us. That was my last hunt.

Apologies to the OP. We are about as far off the topic as one could get. At least we're still talking about guns and shooting :)
Lets be honest here Charlie, the income produced by culling those Elk is also very important to some of those ranchers.
And that is especially true in the state you live.
But if a hunter finds that long range varmit hunting is enjoyable, then other types such as deer hunting probably would be also.

[charlie b]

On public lands the ranchers don't benefit other than by not having the elk compete with the cattle and tear up fences. I never was a fan of hunting on private land. Plenty of that around here too, including several ranches set up for raising and processing elk as well as hosting hunts. A couple of those are for sale if you are interested :) I think one was only $25M :)