think my brake is broken

[LoneWolf]

All I can say is that all you steel bangers could learn a lot by attending a real bench rest match and just observe. You may have the opinion that what bench resters do have no real connection to your discipline, and anybody could do it with that kind of equipment. Once you soak it in, you'll have a whole new way of thnking.
Every little accuracy improvement that is associated with precision shooting in the last 50 yrs., including bullets, barrels, bedding, powder, stocks, optics and other misc. gadgets and tools, can be attributed to a "bench rest shooter".

Completely agree Fred! A lot has come from High Power/XC/and PRS type shooting as well. I'm just to young and hard headed to be confined to a bench or shoot all belly matches, but I do try many different practices as they all apply in some way or another to the style of shooting I primarily compete in. That's the best part of PRS is there's a little bit of everything.

[eddiesindian]

It didnt help matters that I was having a hard time putting good groups together as well. I sometimes dont understand how you can go out one time and shoot like a laser beam one day then on another, you cant put together one really good group. So then when I couldnt keep it on target my confidence went in the crapper. This will be eating my lunch all week till I can get back out and figure out what is going on. I appreciate all the pointers.

The first thing I have to do is get out and shoot off front bag and see if it still flips left. I realize that a bag will probably minimize the flip but if there is none at all or very very little then Ill realize that the rubber feet on the hard surface may have multiplied the issue. I need to shoot at distance with the bag as well as off the ground at distance then off bipod and compare all three. If they are all three similar results then I have to look very closely at me then finally the brake. That at least for now is my plan of attack.

My wife needs a new brake so we may look at the apa little b for her. That way I can see it up close and see how it works. Does it use a timing washer?

Everybody has those days. One day your the real deal, the next a lost soul.
agree with everyone else. Trigger time. Fundamentals.
There's days when I know I'm not one with the gun.from having a bad day to being just plain tired.
What's helped me is using snap caps for dry firing. That a long with simple 3" cross hairs I make using a red marker on a plain white paper. When I align the black cross hairs from scope to the red cross hairs on the paper, the red cross hairs disappear. If I move even the slightest horizontally or vertically during the process, the red cross hair reappears. Works for me.

[doctnj]

As a family, we do a lot of long range shooting because it IS shooter sensitive. That brings out the competitive nature in our family. We had an opportunity to go to a class that used the f type rests and I/we totally passed. Thats not how we will shoot so really other than ballistics and verifying dope I dont think that would be as good as classes that use bipods and other means of support that relies on shooter skills and fundamentals of marksmanship.

I talked with a local smith yesterday and sent him pictures and measurements of my wifes existing brake so he can start the process of making her something that doesnt throw dirt in your face. I will say this about the radial brake thats on there now. Its the most neutral brake I think ive ever shot. But a face full of crap every time you pull the trigger is not worth it. So I will see what he spins up for her and how it works. She has a very similar rifle to mine so this is a pretty cool comparison when its all said and done.

This smith builds all kinds of custom rigs, but specializes in race guns where getting muzzle movement completely neutral with a brake is the goal for speed shooting. If after he gets done and I personally have similar results on hers I will feel a lot better about my own rig.

And as soon as I get my creedmoor and 338 back from Fred Ill put them together and compare muzzle movement with them. I do remember sight picture interuption, I just dont remember what direction they went. The reason I was hyper focused on this is when everyone says "see your hits". I dont know maybe 400 yrds is too close to regain sight picture to be able to see your hits?

For now I will not worry about it but just shoot.

[LongRange]

if you can not see hits at all distances you have some work to do....i can see all of my impacts even with my long action 260 without a break but that rifle is just under 20lbs...one of the biggest things ive noticed when ppl cant see their impacts is they blink or flinch when shooting or both...both will cause you to come off the scope.

[yobuck]

all i can say is that all you steel bangers could learn a lot by attending a real bench rest match and just observe. You may have the opinion that what bench resters do have no real connection to your discipline, and anybody could do it with that kind of equipment. Once you soak it in, you'll have a whole new way of thnking.
Every little accuracy improvement that is associated with precision shooting in the last 50 yrs., including bullets, barrels, bedding, powder, stocks, optics and other misc. Gadgets and tools, can be attributed to a "bench rest shooter".

ahmen.

[doctnj]

You are absolutely correct there. I just read on another thread that if a rifle goes to one side every time it is likely the slant of the shoulder putting it there. I could have very well had my shoulder slanted back or just not square enough to keep it on target. On sat. I shot my wifes new rifle and I watched every round hit the paper and was really impressed I could do it. That is one big reason I was trying to do it with mine. I did/do still struggle with blinking but not so much on Sunday. But it wouldn't have mattered if I blinked because it just plain went left. I saw another drill to help get the shoulder square. Basically you get in position and with the right hand extend your arm and reach for the fore arm. Once extended you almost freeze you shoulder and just articulate you elbow and bring the hand back to the trigger. I may try this.

OK I am aslo going to tell on my self. Don't know if it attributed or not but I cant leave this out. It was a really nice day so I was shooting with out a shirt on. Could have contributed to the slip I guess. Im going to have T. video me from several angles so I can see my set up and shoulder angle. Going to do that with dry fire and then out at the range. I liken this whole thing to my trainer in body building. She is constantly yelling corrections at me for an hour because I slip into bad habits especially as I get tired. I think Im going to have a t shirt made that says "stop moving your neck".

[LongRange]

you need to shoot in a relaxed position and bring the rifle to you not move into the rifle...if your moving to the rifle that will cause you to roll your shoulder forward..if your blinking when you shoot you are most likely flinching too...good positions to set a camera to see bad habits are directly over you with the camera pointing down and focused from your shoulder to the end of the muzzle...close up shots of your trigger finger as your shooting and close ups of your face on the opposite side of your scope eye(so left side if your right handed)then watch the vids in slow motion...if your tensed up it will cause twitching and involuntary muscle movement.

[LoneWolf]

And stay focused on the crosshairs. All the way through the recoil pulse. It will help with both blinking/flinching.

[eddiesindian]

And stay focused on the crosshairs. All the way through the recoil pulse. It will help with both blinking/flinching.

+1.... To me?..thats one of thee most important factors.
"this" is the main reason I use home made cross hair targets. Cross hair on target aligned to cross hair at scope. It helps me get back to the basics. Sometimes (as Im sure other long range shooters do) we "at times" over think things.

[yobuck]

if you can not see hits at all distances you have some work to do....i can see all of my impacts even with my long action 260 without a break but that rifle is just under 20lbs...one of the biggest things ive noticed when ppl cant see their impacts is they blink or flinch when shooting or both...both will cause you to come off the scope.

In general terms I don't agree with you on this. Not implying that (you) cant do as you say here.
But an average shooter or even an above average shooter wont be seeing all his hits at the closer distances.
Especially when using a bipod from a bench. Granted, the heavier the gun the easier it becomes.
But at 500 yds the bullet arrives as quick as we can blink, or maybe unknowingly recover from blinking.
Seeing the hit is important in long range shooting for sure. Seeing the hit in long range hunting,
is even more important because regardless of whats said, they usually dont just fall over dead.
Id recommend a team effort, with you spotting for your wife and vice versa. Its supposed to be fun, at least
for the most of us. When it starts becoming work, then it ceases being fun, but again for the most of us.

[yobuck]

you need to shoot in a relaxed position and bring the rifle to you not move into the rifle...if your moving to the rifle that will cause you to roll your shoulder forward..if your blinking when you shoot you are most likely flinching too...good positions to set a camera to see bad habits are directly over you with the camera pointing down and focused from your shoulder to the end of the muzzle...close up shots of your trigger finger as your shooting and close ups of your face on the opposite side of your scope eye(so left side if your right handed)then watch the vids in slow motion...if your tensed up it will cause twitching and involuntary muscle movement.

If you go to a benchrest match and observe, especially where heavy recoil guns are used, you will see the gun setup and aligned with the target.
After each shot, the shooter will slide the gun forward to its original position on the bags, and realign himself behind the gun, and not bring the gun to him.
The modern way seems to be to use lighter recoiling guns with stocks that ride straight back on the bags. Then shoot all the shots as fast as you can reload without realinging the gun.
Ten shots in under 1 minit cant include much of anything but loading and sending it. I'm not sure if the current
world record group, the smallest ever shot with any gun at that distance, was shot in this manner or not.
But it was a 16.5 # gun and not a heavy version as is allowed in the heavy class. Had he shot this group with this gun, in a heavy gun match as many do, he would be holding both records today.
Point is that the discipline determines things as to how we shoot moreso than personal choice. And nowhere would that be more important than in traditional position shooting.

[LongRange]

In general terms I don't agree with you on this. Not implying that (you) cant do as you say here.
But an average shooter or even an above average shooter wont be seeing all his hits at the closer distances.
Especially when using a bipod from a bench. Granted, the heavier the gun the easier it becomes.
But at 500 yds the bullet arrives as quick as we can blink, or maybe unknowingly recover from blinking.
Seeing the hit is important in long range shooting for sure. Seeing the hit in long range hunting,
is even more important because regardless of whats said, they usually dont just fall over dead.
Id recommend a team effort, with you spotting for your wife and vice versa. Its supposed to be fun, at least
for the most of us. When it starts becoming work, then it ceases being fun, but again for the most of us.

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.

If you go to a benchrest match and observe, especially where heavy recoil guns are used, you will see the gun setup and aligned with the target.
After each shot, the shooter will slide the gun forward to its original position on the bags, and realign himself behind the gun, and not bring the gun to him.
The modern way seems to be to use lighter recoiling guns with stocks that ride straight back on the bags. Then shoot all the shots as fast as you can reload without realinging the gun.
Ten shots in under 1 minit cant include much of anything but loading and sending it. I'm not sure if the current
world record group, the smallest ever shot with any gun at that distance, was shot in this manner or not.
But it was a 16.5 # gun and not a heavy version as is allowed in the heavy class. Had he shot this group with this gun, in a heavy gun match as many do, he would be holding both records today.
Point is that the discipline determines things as to how we shoot moreso than personal choice. And nowhere would that be more important than in traditional position shooting.

but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

[LoneWolf]

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.



but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

[Hotolds442]

Poor horse.....

[LongRange]

Poor old horse.....

fixed it.

[doctnj]

Went to the range with lots of good suggestions and put many of them to work today. Did quite a bit of shooting at 400 so that coming off the target would be extremely noticeable. First thing that I changed was getting on to the ground and off the hard table. I made sure I was in a pretty good position and loaded the bipod. The mat we use has a sewn in strap that allows you to get a nice load. I concentrated on not blinking and what do you know? I actually kept the target in the middle of my sight picture. Not every time but much much more than ever before. My confidence is back, well... somewhat any how. When I did loose the target, it was in random directions and not always left so I dont think it is the brake just bad habits.

Now what do you think of this. I watched my wife shoot a nice tight group at 100 and I had a 1 1/4 inch vertical spread. This is a load that I did a ladder test on and it worked very nice when I picked it. Much tighter than this. But, I had to seat the bullet considerably deeper to get it to reliably feed from the magazine. That is the only thing that has changed from the ladder test. Oh, and lots of powder of course. Now the strange part. I then go out to 200 and shoot basically a 1 inch group. Then out to 300 and shoot a 3 inch group. then maybe a 3 1/2 at 400. I should be happy with 3 1/2 at 400 yrds right? This is the second week in a row that it was spread out a little at 100 yrds. I could be over thinking it and shanking a few but my question is this. If Im getting real nice groups out at distance I shouldnt really care what happens at 100 yrds right? I know.... if it doesnt start accurate it wont become accurate.... so its got to be me is my guess.

[jonesturf]

with all that said i found the biggest thing is trigger time...after all that testing and playing with different things i started filming myself shooting and found several things that caused more problems than any of the loading or rifle issues i thought was causing problems...and at the top of the list was rolling my shoulder forward into the butt pad...that one took me a LONG time to correct and every now and then i still catch myself doing it.

as LW said work on fundamentals and dont worry so much about one hole groups they will come later when you have better control.

If I could go back and not waste time on searching for the perfect load for my first 10 years of precision rifle shooting I would have been much better off. I did enjoy load development and still do but spend no more than 60 rounds on it anymore.

To the original question....whomever mentioned barrel twist and the forces acting against it is correct. Most brakes of that design will exhibit some consistent side to side movement usually due to twist and design of the brake.

[eddiesindian]

Went to the range with lots of good suggestions and put many of them to work today. Did quite a bit of shooting at 400 so that coming off the target would be extremely noticeable. First thing that I changed was getting on to the ground and off the hard table. I made sure I was in a pretty good position and loaded the bipod. The mat we use has a sewn in strap that allows you to get a nice load. I concentrated on not blinking and what do you know? I actually kept the target in the middle of my sight picture. Not every time but much much more than ever before. My confidence is back, well... somewhat any how. When I did loose the target, it was in random directions and not always left so I dont think it is the brake just bad habits.

Now what do you think of this. I watched my wife shoot a nice tight group at 100 and I had a 1 1/4 inch vertical spread. This is a load that I did a ladder test on and it worked very nice when I picked it. Much tighter than this. But, I had to seat the bullet considerably deeper to get it to reliably feed from the magazine. That is the only thing that has changed from the ladder test. Oh, and lots of powder of course. Now the strange part. I then go out to 200 and shoot basically a 1 inch group. Then out to 300 and shoot a 3 inch group. then maybe a 3 1/2 at 400. I should be happy with 3 1/2 at 400 yrds right? This is the second week in a row that it was spread out a little at 100 yrds. I could be over thinking it and shanking a few but my question is this. If Im getting real nice groups out at distance I shouldnt really care what happens at 100 yrds right? I know.... if it doesnt start accurate it wont become accurate.... so its got to be me is my guess.

Different lot # propellant along with changed seating depths equate to change.
Its been my experience that load development results at 100 (to me) which are consistent with small tight groupings results in "tighter" groupings at distance.
I had a younger shooting buddy (mid 20s) who tagged along with me for a spell while shooting long distance. I worked up an accurate load for the kids rifle. Rem 700. heavy varmit 26" 1-12... I chronographed and worked out the ballistics for the kid. I frequently shot his rig and was able to obtain positive results from 300 out to 1K. With him behind the rig, the outcome proved to be inaccurate. I visually watched him work his rifle and realized all his short commings. I advised him on just about everything that shooters here in the sight have told you. the one thing I believe helped him the most was I made him purchase and use snap caps as to practice body position,s and dry firing with the scope cranked to full mag so he could see all of his movements magnified while going thru the motions of pulling the trigger. few months later I came upon him at the range and low and behold, the kids hitting his objectives. he showed me the snap cap he was using and Ill be darned if he didn't wear the dam thing out. Later that evening I went down to the local GS and bought me a snap cap and started taking my own advise lololololoololo..............

[eddiesindian]

This 8 shot pattern that Dave (long range) acquired at 100 equates to tighter patterns at distance. You,ll win bragging rights when tossing them out to 1K. ( with proper wind dope)
Its been a while since Ive acquired an 8 shoot grouping like that. Most I can do is a 5 shot grouping like that.
My point?...... Nice and tight @ 100 = tighter groupings at distance.
Just my 2 cents
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1454788678.jpg

[LongRange]

Trigger time!!

[yobuck]

well i can see my impacts at every distance so i dont need a spotter and as a matter of fact when i shoot matches i ask the squad i get put with to NOT call hits or misses or call if i was low..high..left or right because i can see where my shots impact and(as i tell the squad)im not trying to be a dick but i dont like hearing all the chatter when im shooting all i what to hear is the next distance nothing else.



but we are not talking about bench rest shooting off bags where the rifle slides straight back...if your shooting in positions or off a bipod and chasing your rifle it causes problems.

Well if you can that's wonderfull. But not everybody can, and everybody wont at every location and under all conditions and distances.
Like say 6" of snow or certain types of vegetation or ground cover where no dust or other indicators appears on the hit.
Id agree with not wanting lots of chatter going on from multiple spotters. Just one, experienced to offer advice if and when its needed.
My comments were intended as general in nature, and not directed at you or any other experienced shooters who obviously need no help.

[doctnj]

I found it to be a completely new and exciting experience to have the target remain basically centered in the reticle after the shot.

I was playing around with the idea that I should re run the ladder test around the load I am shooting if the problem persists of me not being able to keep
a tight group at 100. Last week I couldnt seem to hit where I was aiming so I gave the rifle to my wife. She shot a few times and handed it back saying its dead on. Well I want to pursue that a little more and have her shoot it more than 2 or 3 shots and see if that is true. If she puts them all together then I indeed know its all me. I have too much form and technique issues going on to get to wrapped up in changing the load. When I was working up this load I shot off a front bag. Do you think I should check it off a front bag again to see if the changes to the cartridge have really changed poi that much?

[LoneWolf]

I always do load dev and group tests the same way as I'm most likely going to be shooting the rifle. Recoil characteristics change when shot differently. Since the majority of my shooting is shot prone off a bipod and rear bag, then that is how I work load dev.