Results with Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor

[CFJunkie]

I got sidetracked yesterday at the range helping a range buddy with a problem with his AR and didn’t finish the loads I had laid out for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor. I went back to the range this morning and finished the last load.

The following are the results for the morning of May 7th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards. Temperatures from 64 to 70 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.361 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel for the 12^th reflection at the chamber.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Wgt-	Vel--	Avg--	Median-	Std Dev--	1-----	2-----	3-----	4
4	IMR4350 41.4 gr 2.864 1.909 wf 1.361 * 64/65 deg. F.	Sierra Tipped Match King #7430	130	2721	0.352	0.348	0.019	0.333	0.343	0.352	0.378

The results to date with the two powders used so far are:

Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev
IMR4350	0.376	0.376	0.062
IMR4451	0.397	0.400	0.079
Here is an update on the two different torque settings: Torque on Action Screws Avg Median St Dev 3 Gps 35 In.-Lbs. 0.378 0.374 0.069 56 45 In.-Lbs. 0.438 0.456 0.071 12 Overall Average 0.388 0.381 0.073 68

When you compare the data for powders including torque settings, the numbers look a bit different.

Torque	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps	Diff.
35	IMR4350	0.376	0.376	0.062	28
35	IMR4451	0.379	0.368	0.077	28	0.67%
45	IMR4451	0.438	0.456	0.071	12	16.35%

The overall average of all groups has dropped from 0.391 to 0.388, but the average for IMR4451 with the 35 in.-lbs. torque setting has dropped to 0.379 (less than 1% difference to IMR4350) compared to the average of 0.438 for the 45 in.-lbs. torque setting with a 16.5% difference to IMR4350 and a 15.57% difference to the 35 in.-lbs. torque results for IMR4451 powder.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 17th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures from 62 to 66 degrees with winds from 3 to 6 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel.
For this session, I mounted a 8-32X56mm Benchrest Nightforce Scope so I could move the 36X Sightron to my new 12 FV .223 that is the subject of another thread within this forum.

I tried some Reloader 17 with the 130 grain Sierra TMK bullets and the 140 Hornady ELD-M bullets because my previous tries with RL-17 indicated that it worked best with light bullets.
I shot some IMR4350 powder with the 142 SMKs and the 147 ELD-M bullets to add groups to those powder-bullet combinations.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Wgt	Vel	Avg	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	RL-17 41.1 2.815 1.910 wf 1.360 * 66/nn deg.. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2803	0.296	0.306	0.039	0.253	0.306	0.329
2	RL-17 41.1 2.813 1.911 wf 1.360 * 62/nn deg.. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M # 26331	140	2763	0.558	0.558	0.114	0.477	0.638
3	IMR4350 41.1 gr 2.818 1.909 wf 1.361 * 69/nn deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2679	0.358	0.333	0.062	0.312	0.333	0.428
3	IMR4350 40.6 gr 2.810 1.908 wf 1.361 * 71/nn deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M # 26333	147	2655	0.373	0.365	0.046	0.332	0.365	0.423
11	# groups				0.381	0.333	0.107

Here is an updated summary of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor to date.

	5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight
Weight	Average	Median	St Dev	# Grps
130	0.372	0.352	0.075	24
140	0.417	0.405	0.100	25
142	0.370	0.372	0.041	13
147	0.378	0.374	0.053	17
	0.387	0.375	0.077	79

By Powder

	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev
	IMR4350	0.375	0.373	0.059
	IMR4451	0.397	0.401	0.086
	RL-17	0.401	0.329	0.157
	By Torque on the Action Screws
		Avg	Median	St Dev	# Gps
	35 In.-Lbs.	0.378	0.372	0.061	67
	45 In.-Lbs.	0.438	0.456	0.071	12
	Overall Average	0.387	0.375	0.077	79
Torque	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps
35	IMR4350	0.375	0.373	0.059	34
35	IMR4451	0.379	0.368	0.077	28
35	RL-17	0.401	0.329	0.157	5
45	IMR4451	0.438	0.456	0.071	12

[CFJunkie]

Robinhood,

Prompted by your question in post #14, I checked the torque settings on the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor when I was cleaning the barrel after the last session,
My records show that there were 300 rounds fired since I tightened the screws to 35 in.-lbs.

Using a torque wrench set at 35 in.-lbs., the rear action screw needed about 1/2 a turn before the torque wrench clicked.
The front action screw turned less than 1/4 turn.
As you suspected, the action screws don't stay consistent in the factory plastic stock at least for the 6.5mm Creedmoor.

I did a similar test with my 12 FV .223 with the torque wrench still set to the same setting and there was no movement in the action screws.
It could be that the added recoil from the 6.5mm Creedmoor is loosening them up.

Considering how this rifle shoots, I guess I will do a regular test of the action screws every time I shoot 100 rounds.
It will also give me some opportunities to adjust the torque to test settings at 30 and 40 in.-lbs. as well.
I am preparing another batch of loads tomorrow and will probably set the action screws to 40 in.-lb. to see if it makes a difference.

[varget204]

Just a thought,as good as your rifle shoots,i'd try a pillar bedded stock at least,i had a 12 fv that shot around 1/2",i put a $100 Bell and Carlson pillar bedded stock on it.It would shoot in the High .1's and low.2's,once set,the action screws never moved.

[CFJunkie]

Currently, I am just trying to see what I can accomplish with a bargain rifle and a factory stock that some people really hate.
So far it is doing better than I thought it would.

I am looking at a couple of stock options but I haven't decided if I want to keep the hidden mag or go with a detachable mag. replacment.
I have had good results from stocks with aluminum frames in addition to pillar bedding so I expect I will go that route.
Thanks for the advice and the documented improvements.
I haven't seen a B&C stock for that rifle that comes close to $100. You got a bargain.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 22^nd shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures were from 60 to 69 degrees with winds from 3 to 6 mph.
Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve 1.360 msec. exit time that should be in the sweet spot for the 26-inch Savage 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040 inch recessed crown to put the 12^th reflection at the chamber.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Wgt	Vel	Avg	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.857 1.911 wf 1.360 *67/69 deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TMKing #7430	130	2698	0.347	0.348	0.010	0.336	0.348	0.356
3	IMR4350 41.0 gr 2.825 1.910 wf 1.360 * 65/67 deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M # 26331	140	2673	0.470	0.506	0.133	0.323	0.506
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.823 1.909 wf 1.360 * 61/64 deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Berger Match # 26401	140	2665	0.379	0.364	0.049	0.338	0.358	0.370	0.450
3	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.820 1.908 wf 1.360 * 57/60 deg F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra SMK #1742	142	2659	0.379	0.360	0.076	0.314	0.360	0.463
13					0.377	0.357	0.061

The overall average of all groups has dropped from 0.388 to 0.386, although the average for the 35 in.-lbs. torque settings has dropped to 0.383 compared to the average of 0.438 for the 45 in.-lbs. torque settings.

	Torque	Avg.	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	35 in.-lbs.	0.383	0.372	0.074	79
	45 in.-lbs.	0.438	0.456	0.071	12

A summary of all loads shot to date shows the following for all loads shot regardless of the torque settings:

	5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight
Wgt	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps
130	0.369	0.351	0.071	27
140	0.412	0.401	0.094	31
142	0.372	0.367	0.046	16
147	0.378	0.374	0.053	17
	0.386	0.372	0.075	91

Looking at the results by Powder used shows:

	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	IMR4350	0.377	0.373	0.062	36
	IMR4451	0.391	0.372	0.074	50
	RL-17	0.401	0.329	0.157	5
Torque	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps	Diff
35	IMR4451	0.376	0.360	0.070	38
35	IMR4350	0.377	0.373	0.062	36	0.14%
35	RL-17	0.401	0.329	0.157	5	6.48%
45	IMR4451	0.438	0.456	0.071	12	16.53%

[varget204]

The BC stock i got threw Cabelas on sale,if your machaniclly inclined Stocky Stocks sell Steel Savage Pillars for Savage stocks for $15

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 25th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures from 67 to 74 degrees with winds from 4 to 7 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040 inch crown recess.
The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. for this session.
A 8-32X56mm Benchrest Nightforce Scope was mounted on the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor so I could move the 36X Sightron to my new 12 FV .223 that is the subject of another thread within this forum.
At this session, I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time. That changed the seating depth on three of the 4 bullet loads – the Berger 140s stayed the same as the last IMR4451 load for that bullet that outperformed today’s load by 0.016 inches.

Also at this session, I shot some IMR4350 powder with the 140 Berger VLD bullets – the first time I have used IMR4350 with the Berger 140s.
The results with IMR4350 averaged 0.395 while the IMR4451 averaged 0.379 with the 35 in.-lbs. torque.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
4	IM4350 41.1 2.846 1.909 wf 1.360 * 72/74 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2717	0.353	0.353	0.055	0.286	0.339	0.366	0.419
4	IMR4350 41.1 2.842 1.911 wf 1.360 * 67/70 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M # 26331	140	2685	0.401	0.390	0.042	0..365	0..380	0.399	0.460
3	IMR4350 41.1 gr 2.818 1.909 wf 1.360 * 65/67 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2681	0.358	0.357	0.079	0.301	0.322	0.447
3	IMR4350 40.6 gr 2.848 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/72 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Berger VLD Match #26401	140	2684	0..395	0.418	0.078	0.308	0.418	0.459
14	# groups				0.376	0.373	0.059

The net result of reducing the jump for 3 of the 4 bulletschanged the overall average by 0.003 from 0.388 to 0.385 by the addition of 14groups.

Here is an updated summary of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor from inception to this morning session.

	5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight
Weight	Average	Median	St Dev	# Grps
130	0.365	0.348	0.069	24
140	0.410	0.4	0.088	38
142	0.370	0.362	0.050	19
147	0.378	0.374	0.053	17
	0.385	0.372	0.073	105

By Powder

	Powder	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	IMR4350	0.377	0.373	0.061	50
	IMR4451	0.391	0.372	0.074	50
	RL-17	0.401	0.329	0.157	5
By Torque on the Action Screws Torque Average Median St Dev # Grps 35 in.-lbs. 0.378 0.367 0.071 93 45 in.-lbs. 0.438 0.456 0.071 12 Overall Average 0.385 0.372 0.073 105 5-Round Groups 35 in.-lbs. torque Wgt Avg Median St Dev # Grps 130 0.361 0.351 0.066 27 140 0.398 0.377 0.083 30 142 0.370 0.362 0.050 19 147 0.378 0.374 0.053 17 0.383 0.373 0.071 93 Only for bullets in torque test 35 in.-lbs. torque Wgt Avg Median St Dev # Grps 130 0.357 0.347 0.068 16 140 0.398 0.377 0.091 30 0.384 0.366 0.085 46 5-Round Groups 45 in.-lbs. torque Wgt Avg Median St Dev # Grps 130 0.406 0.411 0.086 4 140 0.455 0.456 0.062 8 0.438 0.456 0.071 12

[CFJunkie]

Some of you asked about whether I loaded for jump for this rifle. I had a good idea of where the various bullets would perform based upon my results with my other two Savage 6.5mm Creedmoor rifles.
I admit that I didn’t even bother shooting the Sierra 140 gr SMK #1740 bullets because they shot so poorly in my other two rifles and I didn’t bother with Berger’s 140 gr Long Distance #26409 and Hybrid #26414 because they didn’t perform much differently than the 140 gr Berger #26401 Match bullets. I still had 200 of them and didn’t want to spend another $60 a box to buy more of the LD and Hybrids hoping for a miracle.

For the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor results since inception, I did an analysis of the effects of seating depths for all the groups shot with the 35 in.-lbs. torque settings so the results would not be skewed by the poor performance at 45 in.-lbs.
The results are shown in O.A.L. measurements because the ogive to tip measurement varies for each bullet type.
The 130 gr Hornady ELD-M #26177 data was limited by having only one half-box of bullets left when I started data gathering with the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor rifle.

The column headings - except for the last two columns - are in increments of thousandths away from SAAMI recommended O.A.L. of 1.910.
Normally I like to keep the jump around 0.015 to 0.020 to minimize the chance of getting the bullet touching the rifling.
(The poly tips on the TMKs and ELD-M bullets add to the bullet overall length but the ogive determines the jump.)
“Avg Diff” is calculated difference in group average at each depth range by the using the average minus the best load average at the seating depth (underlined).

Group Averages by Bullet by O.A.L. Range - 35 in. Lbs. Torque
--------------------------------- 5-10 -- 11-20 -- 21-30 -- 31-40 -- 41-50 -- 51-60 Avg Diff. Jump for best load avg.
Hornady ELD-M # 26177 130 0.374 -------------------------------------------------- - ------- 0.024
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 --------------------------------------- 0.393 -- 0.341 - 0.024 - 0.005
Berger Match # 26401 -- 140 0.378 0.386 -------------------------------------------- 0.026 - 0.056
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 0.404 0.415 ------------------------- 0.401------------ 0.008 - 0.024
Sierra SMK #1742 ------- 142 0.370 0.379 ------------------------ 0.357 ------------ 0.013 - 0.014
Hornady ELD-M # 26333 147 0.387 0.337 -------------------------------------------- 0.042 - 0.024

As you can see, the 130 TMKs like to be seated out so the jump (0.005) for the best load average was shorter than I normally try to achieve.
The 140 gr Berger Match bullets are baffling. They seem to shoot better with a longer jump than expected.
(I’m going to remeasure those bullets to see if I made an error in measuring the bullet depth into the chamber on this rifle.)

[CFJunkie]

Here is another set of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 4^th at 100 yards. Temperatures from 60 to 69 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level. My loads were planned for slightly warmer temperatures, but a cold front moved through overnight and as a result the temperatures were 4 to 7 degrees cooler than expected. Thankfully, I was using IMR4451 Enduron powder with a 0.16 fps per degree F so the results were actually very close to what I had planned for - at the most 1.2 fps slower than planned.
All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

At this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder with all four loads and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.
I had bought some Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” called Tipped Game King (TGK) bullets #4330 to shoot them at the same time under the same conditions with the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets.
The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow them to open up when they strike game.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	IM4451 38.6 2.832 1.913 wf 1.360 * 68/61 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26333	147	2638	0.524	0.534	0.063	0.457	0.534
3	IMR4451 39.0 2.835 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/62 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2663	0.324	0.329	0.064	0.257	0.329	0.385
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.840 1.911 wf 1.360 * 73/71 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2698	0.353	0.357	0.044	0.297	0.339	0.387	0.389
3	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.825 1.909 wf 1.360 * 76/nn deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TGK #4330	130	2698	0.483	0.494	0.083	0.395	0.494	0.560
12	# groups				0.402	0.388	0.093

I can’t imagine what I was doing when I shot the first load with the 147 ELD-M Hornady bullets.
I must have still been asleep.

I guess I fixed the problem because I shot the next two loads pretty well.

The Tipped Game King bullets are hunting bullets and I didn’t expect them to be as accurate but they actually did pretty well except for the last group that I rushed to finish before a cease fire was called to change targets.
I didn't want to stay another 30 minutes if I didn't finish before that cease fire.

[DesertDug]

Good to see you are not a robot, and are indeed human....lol

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 7^th at 100 yards.

In fact, today’s loads were almost identical to the loads I shot on Tuesday, June 4th.
I wanted to see if I could redeem myself after what I considered a really lousy session.
At this session, I again loaded IMR4451 powder with all three loads and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

Temperatures from 70 to 77 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level. My loads were planned for slightly cooler temperatures, but the temperatures were 5 degrees warmer than expected and the humidity was high. Thankfully, I was using IMR4451 Enduron powder with a 0.16 fps per degree F so the results were still very close to what I had planned for.
All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3
3	IM4451 38.6 2.832 1.913 wf 1.360 * 68/72 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26333	147	2638	0.367	0.385	0.044	0.317	0.385	0.398
3	IMR4451 39.0 2.833 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/75 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2663	0.353	0.373	0.055	0.291	0.373	0.395
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.853 1.911 wf 1.360 * 72/77 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2700	0.326	0.331	0.030	0.294	0.361	0.354
9	# groups				0.349	0.354	0042

Today’s with the 147 ELD-M Hornady bullets were a lot better than at the Tuesday June 4th session.
They were the best results yet with IMR4451 powder with that bullet.
Today’s results with the 142 gr SMKs were the 2^nd best with that bullet powder combination and the results with the 130 TMKs were the best results to date with IMR4451 powder.
I think I made up for Tuesday and regained my confidence

[CFJunkie]

I thought you all might be interested in some additional data mining from the start through the Jun 6

^th

session.

First by the summary of accuracy results from inception through Jun 6^th based upon action screw torque settings:

All Groups by Bullet- 35 in.-lbs. Torque
Bullet ---------------------Wgt. Avg. -- Median St Dev # Grps. Rank
Hornady ELD-M # 26177 130 0.374 - 0.387 -- 0.074 -- 7 ---- 3
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 0.353 - 0.345 -- 0.059 - 27 ---- 1
Sierra TGK #4330 ------- 130 0.483 - 0.674 - 0.083 -- 3 ----- 9
Berger Match # 26401--- 140 0.384 - 0.364 - 0.101 - 10 ---- 4
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 0.405 - 0.385 -- 0.087 - 20 ---- 6
Sierra SMK #1742 ------- 142 0.362 - 0.362 - 0.052 - 25 ---- 2
Hornady ELD-M # 26333 -147 0.396 - 0.387 -- 0.072 - 23 ---- 5 Note 1

-----------------------------Total 0.380 - 0.373 -- 0.075 115
All Groups by Bullet- 45 in.-lbs. Torque
Bullet --------------------- Wgt. - Avg. - Median - St Dev # Grps Rank
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 - 0.406 - 0.411 --- 0.086 ---- 4 ---- 7
Berger Match # 26401 -- 140 - 0.505 - 0.505 --- 0.054 ---- 2 --- 10
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 - 0.438 - 0.431 --- 0.059 ---- 6 ---- 8
-----------------------------Total 0.438 - 0.456 --- 0.071 --- 12

Note 1: The 147 gr Hornady ELD-M totals using 35 in.-lbs. torque include the Jun 4^th anomaly group average of 0.534 for 3 groups that really messed up the data for the 147 gr ELD-M when making comparisons.


Without that unexplained disastrous event, the 147 gr ELD-M data and totals would be a more representative statistically, based upon the accepted process control technique to exclude unexplained variations when making comparisons of competing results.
I make this observation because we all occasionally manage to cause anomalies that mess up our conclusions.
If we don’t recognize that one weird session with one load was a variant and an anomaly, our conclusions will be in error.

The revised results for the 147 ELD-M and the totals would move the 147 gr ELD-M from 5^th to 4^th rank ahead of the Berger Match #26401 bullets giving a pretty representative set of data to analyze what bullets shoot best in this rifle:

Hornady ELD-M # 26333 147 - 0.377 - 0.380 - 0.041 -- 20 * 4
-----------------------------Total 0.376 - 0.369 - 0.071 - 112

For analysis purposes, the rank of the 147 ELD-M changes from 5^thto 4^thin the overall order.

But for recording purposes, the uncorrected totals ‘as shot’, including the anomaly group average, stand as a summary of my actual results.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 10^th at 100 yards. Temperatures from 69 to 72 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

I was serving as the Range Safety Officer but it was raining and there were no shooters present, so I got out my rifle to pass the time while I waited for some shooters to arrive.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

At this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

I had bought some Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” called Tipped Game King (TGK) bullets #4330 to shoot them at the same time under the same conditions with the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets. The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow them to open up when they strike game. I had shot the TMKs on Jun 7^th and didn’t get to finish the session so I shot the final load on Jun 10^th.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps

Load Description

Bullet

Weight

Velocity

Average

Median

St Dev

1

2

3

4

3

IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.825 1.909 wf 1.360 * 76/69 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.

Sierra TGK #4330

140

2700

0.325

0.297

0.071

0.278

0.282

0.311

0.429

The Tipped Game King bullets are hunting bullets and Ididn’t expect them to be as accurate but they actually did better during this session than the last time I shot them with the same jump.
But then I didn’t have anyone around to distract me.
I was all finished and packed up before the first shooter arrived when the rain finally stopped.

[CFJunkie]

More results with the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor with the factory stock and barrel.

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 15 at 100 yards. Temperatures from 63 to 74 degrees with winds from 6 to 9 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with an 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope with a NP2-DD reticle. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

For this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.005 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

I loaded the Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” bullets #4330 called Tipped Game King (TGK) with about the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets to achieve the same exit time. I had shot both the TMK and the TGK loads today right after each other so I would get about the same conditions to aid in a direct comparison. The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow the TGKs to open up better when they strike game.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
4	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.851 1.908 wf 1.360 * 63/62 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2700	0.314	0.304	0.037	0.282	0.292	0.316	0.364
3	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.825 1.911 wf 1.360 * 68/65deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TGK #4330	130	2702	0.401	0.398	0.044	0.358	0.398	0.446
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.842 1.912 wf 1.360 * 72/67deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26331	140	2667	0.290	0.293	0.021	0.263	0.289	0.297	0.312
4	IMR4452 38.6 2.827 1.913 wf 1.360 * 74/71 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26334	147	2640	0.361	0.351	0.039	0.329	0.337	0.364	0.415
15					0.337	0.329	0.053

Today’s overall average of .337 was best load of any session so. It looks even better when compared to the overall IMR4451 average of 0.399 with this powder-bullet combination without today’s session.
Some days things go well and some days they just don't. Today was one of the good days, even though the wind was a bit more brisk and changeable then it normally is at our range. Our range is situated in a bowl that is protected by high, earth berms and surrounded by big oaks and hemlocks. There is usually a bit of swirling but the range is generally protected from severe wind action.

The Hornady 140 grain ELD-M bullets had the best load average ever achieved with either the IRM4451 powder used today or the IMR4350 powder also used in other sessions.
This session’s 140 gr ELD-M Hornady load average of 0.290 is the best session load yet shot with any powder bullet combination at any session with this rifle. That surprised me because the 140 ELD-M bullets haven't shot all that well in this barrel. They shoot great in my 12 LRP with the same length barrel. The previous best was 0.296 with Reloader 17 using Sierra 130 gr TMK bullets.

I guess that just proves that part of the driving factor with small numbers of groups is shooter induced variations.
Only a statistically significant number of groups provide a good statistical base to make any conclusions when 'non-fixture testing' is involved and a human is behind the trigger.

The data for this rifle is approaching those quantities so I will soon consider making improvements in the stock to see if it really might be worth the expense.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on Monday morning, June 17, at 100 yards. Temperatures from 77 to 84 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

The temperatures were warm enough this morning to require extended time for the barrel to cool, even with a barrel fan inserted in the barrel, and since it was in the 80s most of the time, the barrel never really got below 85 degrees. As a result, I only got to shoot 3 loads today because I wanted to leave the range by 11 AM. I don't know how you shooters living in the deeper south ever get your barrels cool.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with an 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope with a NP2-DD reticle. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

For this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.005 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

I loaded the Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” bullets #4330 called Tipped Game King (TGK) with about the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets to achieve the same exit time and jump. I had shot both the TMK and the TGK loads today right after each other so I would get about the same conditions to aid in a direct comparison. The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow the TGKs to open up better when they strike game.
I also shot Hornady 143 ELD-X bullets for the first time with this rifle and wanted to see how they would perform against the 130 grain TGK.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	IMR4451 39.0 gr 2.855 1.913 wf 1.360 * 75/81 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra TMK #7430	130	2700	0.392	0.367	0.044	0.366	0.367	0.442
3	IMR4451 39.0 gr 2.855 1.914 wf 1.360 * 71/77deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Sierra TGK #4330	130	2702	0.321	0.329	0.089	0.211	0.293	0.364	0.416
3	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.863 1.909 wf 1.360 * 72/67deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-X #2635	140	2667	0.298	0.316	0.035	0.257	0.316	0.320
9					0.335	0.342	0.070

Today’s overall average of .335 was slightly better than last Saturday’s session. It brings the overall average of 5 round groups with this rifle to 0.376.

This load of Hornady 143 grain ELD-X bullets performed better than all any of the other hunting bullet loads with the 130 TGKs, which also are hunting bullets, but with only three groups it is too early to tell if this is representative result or an especially fortunate session when everything went especially well.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on Thursday morning, June 20, at 100 yards. Temperatures from 76 to 86 degrees with winds from 3 to 7 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

The temperatures were warm enough again this morning to require extended time for the barrel to cool, even with a barrel fan inserted in the barrel, and since it was in the 80s a lot of the morning, the barrel never really got below 85 degrees. As a result, I only got to shoot 3 loads again today.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with an 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope with a NP2-DD reticle. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

For this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.005 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

This morning I featured all Hornady 130 grain #26177, 140 grain #26331 and 174 grain #26333 ELD-M bullets.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.818 1.914 wf 1.360 * 73/76 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26177	130	2698	0.332	0.280	0.111	0.256	0.280	0.459
4	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.835 1.913 wf 1.360 * 76/78 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26331	140	2668	0.361	0.352	0.047	0.314	0.352	0.352	0.426
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.863 1.911 wf 1.360 * 80/86 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26333	147	2640	0.318	0.314	0.044	0.273	0.290	0.338	0.369
11					0.337	0.338	0.064

Today’s overall average of .337 was Just 0.002 worse than the 17ths results. It brings the overall average of 5 round groups with this rifle to 0.374.

The results were anything spectacular today but each session seems to be bringing the overall average down a bit.

This rifle now has over 1,000 rounds fired and 835 rounds measured and recorded with 167 groups that used three different powders, two action screw torque settings, and two different scopes.

Tomorrow, when I have a bit more time, I will gather and provide an analysis of the results to date so you can see how powders and bullets performed.

[CFJunkie]

As promised, here is a summary of the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor from its first use in mid March through the Jun 20 session now that there are 1,000 rounds down the barrel.


5 Round Groups Savage 12 FV 6.5 mm Creedmoor By Weight Hand Loads
----------------------------------------------------------- Best Load ---
# Grps Powder----- Bullet ----------------- Wgt.-- Avg. ----Avg, --Vel.
4 -------IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26177 -- 130 --- 0.362 ---0.362 --2719
6 -------IMR 4451 Hornady Match # 26177 -- 130 --- 0.361 ---0.332 --2698
10------IMR 4350 Sierra TMK #7430 ----------130 --- 0.392 ---0.352 --2721
25------IMR 4451 Sierra TMK #7430 ----------130 --- 0.352 ---0.347 --2698
3 -------RL-17 ----Sierra TMK #7430 ----------130 --- 0.296 ---0.296 --2803
14------IMR 4451 Sierra TGK #4330 ----------130 --- 0.374 ---0.321 --2702
11------IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 --- 0.409 ---0.419 --2683
21------IMR 4451 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 --- 0.399 ---0.403 --2664
2-------RL-17 -----Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 --- 0.558 ---0.558 --2763
3-------IMR 4350 Berger Match # 26401 -----140 --- 0.395 ---0.395 --2684
9-------IMR 4451 Berger Match # 26401 -----140 --- 0.407 ---0.378 --2663
12------IMR 4350 Sierra Match King #1742 --142 --- 0.363 ---0.358 --2678
13----- IMR 4451 Sierra Match King #1742 --142 --- 0.362 ---0.324 --2663
3-------IMR 4451 Hornady ELD-X #2635 -----143 --- 0.298 ---0.298 --2667
10------IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 --- 0.367 ---0.337 --2659
21------IMR 4451 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 --- 0.388 ---0.373 --2638
167------------------------------------------------------- 0.374

	5-Round Groups			35 in.-lbs. torque
	Weight	Average	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	130	0.361	0.353	0.0699	54
	140	0.385	0.3685	0.0872	38
	142	0.362	0.362	0.0519	25
	143	0.298	0.316	0.0353	3
	147	0.381	0.372	0.0702	31
		0.369	0.367	0.0743	155
	Only for bullets in torque test			35 in.-lbs. torque
	Weight	Average	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	130	0.358	0.348	0.069	41
	140	0.385	0.3685	0.087	38
		0.370	0.365	0.083	86
	5-Round Groups			45 in.-lbs. torque
	Weight	Average	Median	St Dev	# Grps
	130	0.406	0.411	0.086	4
	140	0.455	0.456	0.062	8
	142
	147
		0.438	0.456	0.070	12

Group Averages by Bullet by O.A.L. Range - 35 in. Lbs. Torque
Bullet -------------------- Wgt. 2.805 to 20 2.821 to 30 2.831 to 40 2.841 to 50 2.851 to 65 Avg.-Best Jump Jump
Hornady Match # 26177 130 -------0.361------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- 0.024
Sierra TMK #7430 -------130 ---------------------------------------------0.377------ 0.350 --------- 0.009 ----- 0.005
Sierra TGK #4330 -------130 --------------------0.395------------------------------- 0.321 --------- 0.074 ----- 0.020
Berger Match # 26401 --140 -------0.378 ------0.386 ----------------------------------------------- 0.026 ----- 0.056
Hornady Match # 26331 140 -------0.403 ------0.417 -----0.361------ 0.346 ----- 0.558 --------- 0.046 ----- 0.024
Sierra SMK #1742 -------142 -------0.372 ------------------0.338 ------0.357 ---------------------- 0.024 ----- 0.023
Hornady ELD-X #2635---143 ---------------------------------------------------------- 0.298 -------- ------------- 0.049
Hornady Match # 26333 147 -------0.378 ------0.361 -----0.394 ----------------------------------- 0.020 ----- 0.024

[DesertDug]

Great data, thanks for sharing.

1000 rounds with 5 round groups averaging 0.374" with a stock 12fv impressive indeed.

Will you keep up the testing till the groups start to opening and start to show that the barrel is getting shot out? Any predictions on what round count this will start to show?

[CFJunkie]

Now that the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor rifle has shot over 1.000 rounds since March 21^st, I think it is time to close up this thread and finish my experiment with the factory plastic stock.

I believe it is now time to change the factory stock with plastic bedding and lots of flex to a more stable, aluminum rail, aluminum bedded stock to see if the more stable stock improves performance.
I’m still trying to decide whether to go with an Oryx aluminum frame stock or a more classic stock like a Hogue, B&C or Choate.
The Oryx stock makes the conversion to AICS mags very easy, but I am concerned that the flat stock without any drop will require higher rings to be able to get a comfortable cheek weld.
It is either an Oryx with an AICS detachable mag or sticking with the hidden mag on the 12 FV.
Actually, the hidden mag isn’t much of a problem with the 6.5mm Creedmoor 12 FV but the reduced space caused by the flange on the bolt of the .223 12 FV makes the hidden mag a PITA.

In this final post, I thought that it would be good to look at timeline of the performance over the 16 range sessions.



As some others have reported on different threads, it seems to take a few groups for a new Savage to settle down, and my first session produced much larger groups than succeeding sessions. But I might simply have needed to get comfortable with a new combination of stock, barrel, and mounted scope.

Interestingly, another increase in group size occurred in the first session after the original Sightron scope was changed to a more expensive NightForce Benchrest scope. Note that after the initial three sessions and after the incredible lapse in accuracy with one load on Jun 4th, the session averages with the NightForce scope improved significantly from that point onward when compared to the Sightron scope.
Along the way, new bullet types made slight changes in averages, but it wasn’t always to increase them, some of the more recent additions actually improved the session averages. Some of that improvement may have been due to the NightForce scope.

Based on this data, I don’t think that I can make the case for a 3X greater investment in the NightForce scope, but it is easier for me to achieve those group sizes with the NightForce scope, even though the NightForce has 32X maximum power compared to the Sightron scope’s 36X power. It is more comfortable getting behind the NightForce scope consistently but the results don’t show all that much improvement, although the accuracy time line shows that, except for one anomaly, there has been a steady improvement since I changed to the NightForce scope.

I think the most telling analysis of the general performance of the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor comes when the distribution of group sizes is performed without regard to bullet type, weight or powder.


The distribution is slightly skewed toward the higher values but has a close to normal distribution shape. The graph provides some indication of the overall accuracy of the rifle even considering the edge performance of shooter induced variations on the high side (probably due to one or two load anomalies) and one serendipitously small group result (just 0.005 smaller than 0.1) on the low end in which the shooter may have pulled an otherwise stray round to make a tighter group than normal.
Yeah, fortuitous errors sometimes produce a better group instead of a worse group. Charts like this tend to identify events like that.

[varget204]

Had a BC Medalist 6 stock on my Savage SA,6 mm creedmoor,Switched to a ORYX chassis,the chassis is rock solid,zero movement,Accuracy has improved.Highly recommend,wish i had gotten it before the BC[It has full length aluminum block;But needs Bedded to eliminate movement] I would bet money your groups will get better w/ one

[Evlshnngns]

For the people that are skeptical about barrel time, here is someone else working the numbers. Quickload conversation starts at 11min 35 sec.

Thanks for sharing the journey CFJunkie.

[CFJunkie]

I claimed when I provided the last results that I would close this thread and change the stock on the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor. Well, I still wanted to shoot it and the new stock hasn’t arrived yet, so this post might be my last results.

The following are the results with the Savage 12 6.5 mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on Monday morning, June 24 and Monday morning June 25, at 100 yards. Temperatures on Monday were from 73 to 81 degrees with winds from calm to 3 mph. Temperatures on Tuesday morning were 79 to 82 with winds also calm to 3 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level. The Monday session was shared with testing the 12 FV .223 with 69 and 77 grain bullets so I had to complete the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor session on Tuesday morning.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with an 8x32x56mm NightForce scope with a NP-2DD reticle. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.
For this session, I loaded IMR4451 Enduron powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.005 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

On Monday morning I shot Sierra TGK 130 grain bullets and Hornady ELD-M 140 grain bullets. On Tuesday morning I shot Hornady ELD-X 143 grain bullets and ELD-M 147 grain bullets.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.824 1.914 wf 1.360 * 73/76 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Sierra TGK #4330	130	2700	0.339	0.345	0.071	0.264	0.294	0.396	0.403
4	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.840 1.911 wf 1.360 * 75/77 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.	Hornady ELD-M #26331	140	2667	0.343	0.349	0.017	0..318	0.344	0.353	0.355
4	IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.856 1.913 wf 1.360 * 78/78 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.	Hornady ELD-X #2635	143	2655	0..325	0.308	0.046	0.230	0.306	0.310	0.392
4	IMR4451 37.7 gr 2.838 1.908 wf 1.360 * 82/82 deg, F.	Hornady ELD-M #26333	147	2641	0.379	0.366	0.062	0.322	0.340	0.392	0.460
16					0346	0.342	0.052

The two-day session didn’t have any spectacular results, but the overall average for all groups has now dropped to 0.371 from 0.374.
The 143 ELD-X bullets continue to impress but Tuesday’s results didn’t match the initial session average of 0.298. The combined average for the 143 ELD-X is now 0.313.

[CFJunkie]

I just checked the AICS mags for available O.A.L. and I am a bit concerned.

The .308 mag that I measured

the internal space in the mag and found

only 2.832 available for seating depth. I probably would have to leave 0.002 more space to keep tips from binding in the mag, that would mean I would have to restrict the O.A.L. of my loads to 2.830.
Best results with the 130 TMKs come at 2.846 & 2.850+ O.A.L.
Best results with the 140 ELD-M came at 2.842
Best results wiht the 143 ELD-X came at 2.863.
Best results with the 147 ElD-M came at 2.835 & 2.838.
So the O.A.L.s that my rifle shoots best would not be available to me.

I also measured the AICS mag. for the .223.
The available space for O.A.L. is over 2.540.
That it really great!
There is no way a .223 can be loaded that long so the magazine is not a limiting factor, even though I load some of my best 77 gr TMK loads out at 2.344.
If the Oryx stock gets picked, it will be with the 12 FV .223 not the 6.5mm Creedmoor or any of my .308s. The .308 AICS mag is just too limiting for my most accurate reloads.

I probably will need to switch to x-high rings for my Sightron scope because the rear stock is straight in line with the barrel, like an AR even though there is no need for it to be since there is no recoil spring tube to deal with. The Savage stocks are all canted down a bit so the rings don't have to be so high to get a good cheek weld.
Checking the rear stock on an Oryx, it is about 1/2 an inch higher than the Savage stock.
That will make the rings I have on the Sightron about 1/2 an inch too low making it impossible to get behind the scope with the current rings.

[DesertDug]

What make aics mag did you get to measure? My metal 308 AICS I got from x-caliber has an internal max lenght of 3.910" so there would be plenty of room. If lenght is only concern, you may check other mags.