Results with Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor

[CFJunkie]

Here are the first results from my new 12 FV in 6.5mm Creedmoor.
These were the first rounds shot from this rifle so there may be some initial 'shooting in' effect, or it just could be the rifle prefers heavier bullets.
Note the gradual improvement from the first load to the 3rd load listed.

All loads were with Lapua Brass, CCI BR-4 primers and were shot at temperatures from 34 to 37 degrees at altitude of 250 ft. above sea level.

Load Description lists, in order, powder, charge, O.A.L., velocity in fps, trim length, and wf (exit time in msec).

Exit times were at the 12th reflection for the 26-inch barrel.

The second group in the 130 grain TMK may have been the result of a loose ring screw that I was sure I tightened to 30 in-lbs. with my old Fat Wrench.
I would have just chalked it off to 75 year old forgetfulness but the same thing happened on the scope rings on a new scope that I know I tightened with the same Fat Wrench on the new 12 FV .223 that is listed in another post. I think that my Fat Wrench may have have been jostled a bit too much from banging around 8 years in my range bag.

	Savage 12 FV 6.5 mm Creedmoor			5 round Groups			Sightron 36x42mm
# Grps	Load Description		Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
2	IMR4350 42.0 gr 2.850 2720 case 1.910 wf 1.361	Sierra Tipped Match King #7430		130	2720	0.473	0.473	0.077	0.418	0.527
2	IMR4350 37.4 gr 2.815 2683 case 1.910 wf 1.361		Hornady Match # 26331	140	2683	0.406	0.406	0.055	0.367	0.445
4	IMR4350 41.0 gr 2.807 2678 case 1.910 wf 1.361		Sierra Match King #1742	142	2678	0.358	0.359	0.040	0.315	0.334	0.384	0.399

[Lclevenger]

Wow looks like you have a really nice rifle there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CFJunkie]

More data from the Mar 25th 2019 session with different bullets:

	Savage 12 FV 6.5 mm Creedmoor			5 round Groups			Sightron 36x42mm
# Grps	Load Description		Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
4	IMR4350 41.8 gr 2.815 130 Hornady ELD-M 2719 1.910 CCI BR-4 wf 1.361 * Lapua SRP 49/47 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26177		130	2719	0.362	0.369	0.095	0.240	0.351	0.387	0.468
3	IMR4350 41.3 gr 2/820 147 Hornady ELD-M 2659 1.910 CCI BR-4 wf 1.361 * Lapua SRP 47/44 deg F.		Hornady Match # 26333	147	2659	0.337	0.301	0.074	0.287	0.301	0.422

Today's average was 0.351 for 7 groups.
Mar 20th average was 0.398 for 8 groups.
Overall average for all groups (all bullet weights) is now 0.376 for 15 groups.

It appears that this rifle likes the heavier bullets, just like I had hoped.
My other 6.5mm CM 26-inch barrel 12 LRP also likes heavier bullets so this 12 FV can be the load development mule for the more expensive 12 LRP and take some of the work off its barrel.

Weight	Average	Median	St Dev
130	0.399	0.403	0.099
140	0.406	0.406	0.055
142	0.358	0.359	0.040
147	0.337	0.301	0.074

[williamjwolfjr]

I have the same rifle. The bolt required a rap with my palm to eject spent casing. I was going to take my bolt apart to check. I was told I may need an impact wrench first time disassembling. I stuck my 1/4” Allen wrench in and noticed I could turn bolt. It was loose from the factory. Could this have caused any issue? I disassembled and cleans and tightened bolt when I put back together. Thanks

[CFJunkie]

I noticed your post on the 110 rifle forum.

I have only had to rap the bolt to get the case to eject when there was high pressure.

I would suspect that a loose bolt may have been the cause of your problem.
Once the spacing changes, the lugs might be locking up.
Has it happened again after you tightened the bolt.

I would chat with a Savage technician on their web site and ask them.
I had good response from Savage when I found that the chamber on my 12 LRP 6.5mm was tight and causing pressure signs even when shooting light loads.
I had pictures and load information for each condition and they told sent me a shipping voucher to send the rifle back to them.
They bored that chamber a few thousandths and the problem was solved.

I hope tightening the bolt solved the problem.

[Robinhood]

I have the same rifle. The bolt required a rap with my palm to eject spent casing. I was going to take my bolt apart to check. I was told I may need an impact wrench first time disassembling. I stuck my 1/4” Allen wrench in and noticed I could turn bolt. It was loose from the factory. Could this have caused any issue? I disassembled and cleans and tightened bolt when I put back together. Thanks

If it(the BAS, Bolt Assembly Screw) was real loose it could have impacted the function of the primary extraction ramps. The bolt handle would probably have seemed very loose to you if that was the case. I have never heard of a new action having a loose BAS. I'm sure it could happen.

[CFJunkie]

More data from my 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot on the morning or April 2nd in northern Virginia
Temperatures were from 36 to 43 degrees F. with winds from 3 to 5 mph at altitude of 250 ft. above sea level.

All loads were using IMR4451 Enduron powder with CCI BR-4 primers and Lapua brass on their second reload.
Data under load description is the powder and charge, O.A.L., muzzle velocity, trim length, exit time of the bullet, and the temperature loaded/shot.

# Grps Load Description Bullet Weight Velocity Average Median St Dev 1 2 3 4 4 IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.856 2705 1.909 wf 1.361 * 41/40 deg F. Sierra Tipped Match King #7430 130 2705 0.406 0.411 0.086 0.317 0.348 0.474 0.484 4 IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.815 2664 1.911 wf 1.361 * 35/36 deg F. Hornady Match # 26331 140 2664 0.433 0.431 0.028 0.405 0.416 0.446 0.466 2 IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.813 2663 1.908 wf 1.361 * 44/43 deg F. Hornady Match # 26331 140 2663 0.448 0.448 0.121 0.362 0.533 2 IMR4451 38.6 gr 2.813 2662 1.910 wf 1.361 * 39/38 deg F. Berger Match # 26401 140 2662 0.505 0.505 0.054 0.467 0.543 Today's session averaged 0.438 for 12 groups. The first two sessions averaged 0.375 for 15 groups. I did tighten the action screws a bit since the first session. I guess I might have to loosen them up a bit back to about 35 in.-lbs. and see if they like the action screws a bit looser than 45 in.-lbs.
Here is a summary of all the loads shot to date by bullet weight. 5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight Weight Average Median St Dev 130 0.401 0.403 0.089 140 0.445 0.446 0.061 142 0.358 0.359 0.040 147 0.337 0.301 0.074

The third load was actually shot last and was the

[rmeyerwy]

Sweet, looks like you got a shooter!

[Marine]

My brother and I both have the FV12 in 22-250 and both shoot .250 groups with the right load and most everything is under .650. For under $300 on sale at Cabelas you cannot find anything as accurate as the FV12, it is truly a grand bargain.

[CFJunkie]

Marine,

I have a 12 LRP in 6.5mm Creedmoor that I paid $1,095 for and it shoots just slightly better than the 12 FV in 6.5mm Creedmoor that I paid $319.99 for.

I have a $1,280 NightForce Benchrest scope on the 12 LRP and a $425 Sightron fixed power 36X scope on the 12 FV.

The 12 LRP averages 0.364 for 529 5-round groups with a top 25 load average of 0.285 for 76 groups.
The 12 FV averages 0.404 for 27 groups over the first 9 loads.
That works out to $792 for a rifle to get the last 0.040 in average accuracy or 0.119 in top 25 accuracy.
If you include the cost of the scopes, it works out to $1,502 for the last 0.119 of top 25 accuracy.

I love to shoot the 12 LRP because it is so much fun to shoot, especially with the powder-bullet combinations that it really likes, but I have to agree that the 12 FV is an incredible bargain for a very accurate rifle.

[rmeyerwy]

Gotta love those 12v man!

My 223 with factory frontier 55gr. bthp put me in the 3" circle at 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards last Friday. Dang..it was fun!

Only thing I don't like is the weight of the barrel..but I sure like the barrel!

[CFJunkie]

More data from the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor from Saturday morning Apr 13th in northern Virginia.
Temperature was 62 to 68 degrees from 8 AM to 11 AM with winds from dead calm to about 3 mph at an altitude of 250 ft above sea level.
All shots were at 100 yards with IMR4451 Enduron powder, Lapua Brass, and CCI BR-4 small rifle primers using a Sinclair F-Class Gen 3 bipod and a Protecktor rear rest from a bench.

Description shows powder and charge, O.A.L., trim length, exit time and temperatures loaded for and shot at.
Some of the bullets matched the bullets shot when I torqued the action screws tighter to 45 in.-lbs. and noticed a drop off in accuracy.
I loosened them back to 35 in.-lbs. for this morning's session.
A summary of the results with the two different torque settings are shown at the bottom.

# Grps.	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
4	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.853 1.909 wf 1.361 * 64/64 deg F.	Sierra Tipped Match King #7430	130	2700	0.360	0.382	0.085	0.246	0.345	0.418	0.430
4	IMR4451 38.7 gr 2.812 1.908 wf 1.361 * 62/62 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26331	140	2664	0.403	0.388	0.075	0.330	0.374	0.401	0.506
4	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.817 1.908 wf 1.361 * 66/66 deg F.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2661	0.383	0.369	0.038	0.357	0.362	0.375	0.439
4	IMR4451 38.5 gr 2.810 1.907 wf 1.361 * 68/68 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26333	147	2638	0.410	0.433	0.057	0.326	0.432	0.433	0.449

Today's results averaged 0.389 with a 0.388 median and a 0.062 standard deviation.
Overall results to date, including the bad session with the tighter action screws now averages 0.398 for 43 loads and 13 different loads.

Torque on Action Screws	Avg	Median	St Dev	3 Gps.
35 In.-Lbs.	0.383	0.384	0.068	31
45 In.-Lbs.	0.438	0.456	0.071	12

[CFJunkie]

More detailed analysis of the torque testing by isolating the data only to the weights with both torque settings.
(The 142 SMKs and 147 ELD-M bullets were only shot with 35 in.-lbs. of torque.)

5-Round Groups
Overall Average by Bullet Weight
Wgt. Avg. Mean St Dev # Grps
130 0.390 0.403 0.087 14
140 0.433 0.431 0.065 14
142 0.371 0.369 0.038 8
147 0.379 0.422 0.071 7
-----0.398 0.401 0.072 43 All Wgt.

Torque Test – only 130 & 140 bullet weights
5-Round Groups 35 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt. Avg. Mean St Dev # Grps
130 0.383 0.403 0.091 10
140 0.404 0.388 0.063 6

Wgt. Avg. Mean St Dev # Grps
-----0.391 0.394 0.080 16
5-Round Groups 45 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt. Avg. Mean St Dev # Grps
130 0.406 0.411 0.086 4
140 0.455 0.456 0.062 8
-----0.438 0.456 0.071 12

The 45 in.-lbs. groups averaged 17.9% larger than the 35 in.-lbs. groups.

[Robinhood]

CF, Is this rifle bedded, with pillars, have an aluminum bedding block? Or is it something different. Sorry I don't remember but I know you have posted this info before. If it is the oem plastic do you think the torque remains constant.

[CFJunkie]

Robinhood,

The 12 FV is right out of the box with a factory OEM, upper bolt-release stock without the Accu-stock aluminum frame.

The numbers say that in the short term, torque settings appeared to make a difference.
Whether the non-aluminum pillar bedding will remain stable over time, I can't say.
So far, I am amazed that an OEM plastic stock results in accuracy like it shows.

I bought the 12 FV as a load development platform to keep my really accurate 12 LRP barrel from wearing out.
Granted the HS Precision, aluminum frame, pillar bedded stock on the my 12 LRP 6.5mm Creedmoor shoots slightly more accurately but the 12 LRP also has a Precision Target Accu-trigger and a NightForce scope mounted on it.
The HS Precision stock torque has stayed stable for over 3,000 rounds and the 12 LRP still shooting as good as ever.

It remains to be seen if I am going to see degradation in the 12 FV as I continue to shoot the factory OEM stock.
Now that I know what torque the stock seems to prefer, I'll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't loosen up.
I am curious to see if it will hold up to the challenge.
If the accuracy degrades over time, even with the torque settings in the same range, I'll probably replace the OEM stock with an aluminum bedded one.

[CFJunkie]

Here are the latest results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor on the morning of Apr 23rd.
Temperatures ranged from 56 to 70 degrees from 8 AM to 11 AM with winds from calm to 3 mph.

All shots were at 100 yards with IMR4451 Enduron powder, Lapua Brass, and CCI BR-4 small rifle primers using a Sinclair F-Class Gen 3 bipod and a Protecktor rear rest from a bench.
I shot all the rounds with the action screws torqued to 35 in.-lbs. to verify if the last test remained valid.
The Berger 140 grain #22401 Match bullets shot better at this session, so I presume the shooter was the cause of the poor showing that bullet's last session.

Description shows powder and charge, O.A.L., trim length, exit time and temperatures loaded for and shot at.
The 1.361 exit time is at the 12th reflection of the shock wave at the chamber for the 26 inch 3% carbon steel Savage barrel.

# Grps	Load Description	Bullet	Weight	Velocity	Average	Median	St Dev	1	2	3	4
3	IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.815 1.911 wf 1.361 * 58/56 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26177	130	2698	0.391	0.398	0.046	0.398	0.342	0.433
3	IMR4451 38.7 gr 2.813 1.908 wf 1.361 * 63/60 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26331	140	2665	0.318	0.320	0.028	0.289	0.320	0.345
3	IMR4451 38.7 gr 2.812 1.909 wf 1.361 * 65/65 deg F.	Berger Match # 26401	140	2663	0.378	0.278	0.189	0.260	0.278	0.596
4	IMR4451 38.5 gr 2.810 1.907 wf 1.361 * 68/68 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26333	147	2638	0.410	0.433	0.057	0.326	0.432	0.433	0.449
13	# groups				0.377	0.345	0.092

Here is an update on the performance at the two different torque settings.
Only the 35 in-lbs. torque was shot at this range session.

Torque on Action Screws	Avg	Median	St Dev	# Gps
35 In.-Lbs.	0.378	0.374	0.075	43
45 In.-Lbs.	0.438	0.456	0.071	12
Overall Average	0.392	0.393	0.079	55

[CFJunkie]

Here is the summary of the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor's performance by bullet weight.

5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight
Weight Average Median St Dev # Grps
130 0.390 0.398 0.080 17
140 0.407 0.403 0.093 20
142 0.371 0.369 0.038 8
147 0.377 0.391 0.067 10
Total 0.391 0.387 0.078 55

This barrel has a slight preference for the 142 and 147 grain bullets.
The 142 grain bullets are Sierra Match Kings.
The 147 grain bullets are Hornady ELD-M bullets.

[CFJunkie]

Adding to the analysis, here is a good example of how easy it is to misunderstand the data
The following summation takes averages for each of the total groups shot by bullet weight.

5-Round Groups
Weight Average Median St Dev # Grps
130 -----0.390 ---0.398- 0.080--- 17
140 -----0.407 ---0.403- 0.093--- 20
142 -----0.371 ---0.369- 0.038--- 8
147 -----0.377 ---0.391- 0.067-- 10
----------0.391--- 0.387- 0.078-- 55


From this data, it is easy to see that the 140 grain bullets shoot worse than all of the other weight bullets.

However, if you remember that there was a torque setting anomaly caused by my tightening the action screws, the data should be reanalyzed to see what effect It may have had.

5-Round Groups (Considering Torque Settings)
----------Weight Average Median St Dev # Grps-- Diff % Diff
35 in.-lbs. 130--- 0.385-- 0.398-- 0.081-- 13
45 in.-lbs. 130--- 0.406-- 0.411-- 0.086--- 4--- 0.021 5.4%
35 in.-lbs. 140--- 0.376-- 0.356-- 0.099-- 12
45 in.-lbs. 140--- 0.455-- 0.456-- 0.062--- 8--- 0.079 21.0%
35 in.-lbs. 142--- 0.371-- 0.369-- 0.038--- 8
35 in.-lbs. 147--- 0.377-- 0.391-- 0.067-- 10
--------------------0.391-- 0.387-- 0.078-- 55---0.058 15.2%

From this, it is clear that the higher torque settings make quite a difference and the 140 grain bullets actually shoot just as well as the 147 grain bullets and are actually second best by a very small margin. With the small sample sizes gathered so far, one bad group could determine the second and third places.
What is clear is that the 45 in.-lbs. torque setting has clearly skewed the data.

[varget204]

Have you tried 40" pounds,to see the difference,My savages,always tighten front screw last,you have a shooter

[CFJunkie]

I probably ought to try that just to see if it makes a difference.
Now that I returned from a visit with my younger son's family, I am going to expand the groups shot with IMR4350 and maybe shoot some RL-17 as well.
Somewhere along the way, I'll see if I can get some adjustments to the torque settings and try 40 in.-lbs.
When the groups are coming out as small as they are with 35 in.-lbs., I am tempted to leave the torque settings be.
If Robinhood is right and the plastic stock without aluminum posts might cause the action screws to loosen up, (and I am checking to be sure they remain tight), I'll have the opportunity to adjust them to 40 in.-lbs.

I, too, always tighten the front screw last.
I think that is what Savage recommends if I correctly remember what their blurb said.

[CFJunkie]

Thinking about it over night, I think it would also be wise to try 30 in.-lbs. of torque as well.
If I remember correctly, a Savage video told of 30 in.-lbs. being the most effective setting for stock like the 12 FV's that does not have an aluminum rail or aluminum posts.

In any case, if I am going to experiment, I ought to try settings on either side of 35 in.-lbs.
Unfortunately, to get any data that you can rely on, I'll have to shoot at least 4 groups at each setting, and hope there is not a lot of deviation among the group sizes.
Otherwise I don't think I'll be able to conclude anything.
Luckily, with the 45 in.-lbs. data, the standard deviations were small enough to allow me to conclude that the sample was representative.

[CFJunkie]

Got to the range this morning and filled out the group count with IMR 4350 powder.

The following are the results for the morning of May 6^th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards. Temperatures from 59 to 63 degrees with winds from calm to 3 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.361 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

All these loads were shot with IMR4350 powder tuned for forecasted temperature using QuickLOAD’s temperature adjustments.
Exit time was matched to the desired 12^th reflection time by tuning the powder charge, seating depth based upon the measured trim length for the brass for each load.

# Grps	Load Description	-----------Bullet--------	Wgt	--Vel--	Avg--	Median	St Dev-	--1 --	--2--	--3--	--4--
3	IMR4350 41.2 gr 2.819 1.911 wf 1.361 * 59/60 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26331	140	2683	0.390	0.390	0.094	0.296	0.390	0.484
4	IMR4350 40.9 gr 2.810 1.910 wf 1.361 * 61/62 deg F.	Hornady Match # 26333	147	2659	0.386	0.381	0.017	0.372	0.374	0.387	0.409
2	IMR4350 41.2 gr 2.810 1.910 wf 1.361 * 63/64 deg. F.	Sierra Match King #1742	142	2680	0.389	0.389	0.024	0.372	0.406
9	# groups				0.388	0.387	0.049

[CFJunkie]

A bit more summary data to update the summary with these additional groups.

The averages for 140, 142, and 147 grain bullets for IMR4350 powder have been updated.
The data for IMR4451 powder have not been changed.

5 Round Groups Savage 12 FV 6.5 mm Creedmoor
# Grps --Powder -----Bullet -------------------Wgt-- Avg --Vel
4 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26177 ---130 0.362 2719 ----IMR4350 Powder
7 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 0.365 2659---- Average # Grps
6 ----- IMR 4350 Sierra Match King #1742---142 0.368 2678 ------0.381 ----24
5 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 0.396 2683
2 ----- IMR 4350 Sierra Tipped MK #7430 ---130 0.473 2720

8 ----- IMR4451 Sierra Tipped MK #7430 ---130 0.383 2700 -----IMR4166 Powder
4 ----- IMR4451 Sierra Match King #1742 ---142 0.383 2661 -----Average # Groups
3 ----- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26177 ---130 0.391 2698 --------0.397 ---40
7 ----- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 0.394 2638
13 ---- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 0.399 2664
5 ----- IMR4451 Berger Match # 26401 -----140 0.429 0.378
64 ---------------------------------------------------0.391


Today's groups were all shot with the action screws still torqued to 35 in.-lbs. so the overal results have been updated for the 35 in.-lbs. data.
The 45 in.-lbs. data has not been changed.

5-Round Groups
Wgt -Avg-- Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.390 --0.398 -0.080 ---17
140 -0.405 --0.401 -0.091 ---23
142 -0.374 --0.374 -0.036 ---10
147 -0.379 --0.381 -0.056 ---14
------0.391 --0.387 -0.074 ----64

5-Round Groups 35 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt ---Avg Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.385 --0.398 -0.081 ---13
140 -0.379 --0.356 -0.099 ---12
142 -0.374 --0.374 -0.036 ---10
147 -0.379 --0.381 -0.056 ---14
-------0.379 --0.375 -0.061 --46
Only for weights in torque test
-------0.381 --0.374 -0.088 --25

5-Round Groups 45 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt ---Avg Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.406 --0.411 -0.086 ---4
140 -0.455 --0.456 -0.062 ---8
142
147
------0.438 --0.456 -0.071 --12

[Texas10]

Very thorough data collection. Your methodology is remarkable and a pleasure to read. As far as action torque, have you read these procedures for torque tuning?https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...torque-tuning/

I start with 35 to 45 on the front screw and 15 on the back. All values are INCH pounds. Then shoot a 3 shot group, and raise the rear screw torque to 20. Then 25 and then 30. Typically accuracy will fall off as torque goes over 25, so back down and repeat to find the sweet spot. From then on you'll be carrying a torque wrench in your shooting kit and rechecking this before each day at the range.

I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. Very interesting read!

[CFJunkie]

Texas10,
I appreciate the compliment.
Having done measurement and analysis for almost 50 years as part of my profession, it just seems to come naturally.
Fortunately, good recordkeeping and looking at data in a variety of ways has become second nature to me.

Thanks again for the link.
I think I may have seen it before, but there are also some Savage articles that recommend adjusting the action screws in small increments at a time from back to front.
I think those articles may have made the biggest impression on me because I have been using that technique most of the time.