flat primer question

[WV1951]

Thanks, Biged for the links. Good info there.
It does indeed appear the CCI 400's are on the soft side. However, they are quite prevalent in the small primer crowd. When I backed off the lands, the pressure signs went away. Closer to the lands, and the above pictures with the slight cratering were with 24.0 and 24.5 of H4895. Hodgden recommends 24.0-26.0c. I actually started at 22.0 and worked up. Once I backed off .035, I did not get any craters up to 25.0 and stopped there.
Good question about neck sizing bumping the mouth out of line, but the Lee neck sizing die doesn't utilize an expanding ball(think I got this right, still learning). I do have a very slight out of alignment when chambering a blank case. This was evidenced by the front action screw rubbing on the bottom of the front lug when closing the bolt on an empty piece of brass. Didn't do it with an empty chamber. I filed down the screw slightly and no longer rubs. I told this to Savage today and was told with the floating bolt, that it could be off axis a thousandth or two.
A rat turn in a violin case makes sense.

Creedman, Yes I am crimping my loads. Read many opinions on this over many forums and it is probably a split decision with the edge going to crimping. Talking only 223 here. Once I find a reliable load, I am going to try no crimp.

I did talk to Savage twice(referenced above) with a couple of emails in between. Sent them a pic, and they concurred it is probably a snug throat but not too snug. The rubbed area is partly exaggerated to the slight off center axis of the bolt when chambering. I had the option of returning, but if they found it to spec, it would be my nickel in the end. We left it open and I decide to go that way, it is an option I have.
It appears I will be using well under max load anyway, so I will continue to monitor any pressure signs and stay on the safe side.
Thanks for all of the help.

[creedman6.5]

Yes I agree that there's many mixed feelings as to the crimp or no crimp debate. In most circumstances the crimp is for the purpose of holding the bullet seat depth for cartridges in the mag which experience recoil. When I first started doing loads for my .223 chambered 12fv I had slight high pressure signs for loads I shouldn't have when crimped. The thing I don't like about crimping is that the strength/tightness of crimp is not specified and is completely subjective to the reloaders ideals. These ideals of crimp pressure, along with the resulting case pressures, can vary a bit. I don't crimp on any of my bolt rig loads, not even on my 6.5 or 6 creedmoor match rifles and don't experience any slippage on bullet seating depth. For what it's worth, my gunsmith (a very talented long range shooter, good friend, and also current/former ga precision and badger gunsmith) advises against the crimp for low recoil cartridges in bolt guns, ar15's, and any cartridge in a bench rest type single shot rig. The lack of neck tension in some of the single shot bench rest rigs I've seen is insane. One I've seen, the users loads are jammed into the lands by ten thou and he can't unload a chambered round if unfired without the assistance of a cleaning rod because it pulls the bullet from the case. Lol. Just stupid imo.


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[WV1951]

Excellent point, Creedman
Yes, many of the crimpers were AR shooters and it should be done. Since I have crimped up to now, working on loads, I hate to change a variable. But, with that said, I am still at the beginning, and think I might take your advice and try. I can always redo and test with a crimp for comparison.

[mizzouri1]

This is very interesting, I am shooting the same rifle, 12fv 223 cci 400 with 24-25gr varget 69gr smk and my primers look the same as yours. It don't matter where I seat the bullet.
I had a couple guys of more experience look at my primers and they said the pressure was fine.

I am thinking soft primers, I am going to try thicker primers and see how that goes.

25gr of varget seems to be the sweet spot.

[Scott Evans]

SR primer crater in itself is not a sign of impending doom. Add a crater with an ejector wipe, difficult bolt release, expanded head and loose primer pocket, it is.

[bigedp51]

Excellent point, Creedman
Yes, many of the crimpers were AR shooters and it should be done. Since I have crimped up to now, working on loads, I hate to change a variable. But, with that said, I am still at the beginning, and think I might take your advice and try. I can always redo and test with a crimp for comparison.

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

[WV1951]

Biged
Shot some more today and did not crimp. Didn't see any difference.Some different loads and seating and I still got two near pierces on different loads, but only one out of three of the same load, two times. Puzzling. The lighter the pill, the smoother the primer. It might be loose primer pockets, but sure doesn't appear so. 21 total today, and the rest were fine.
I bought a thousand primers when I started, but will try to find some BR4's, see how they perform, and go from there. I have even had a couple of ftf, but haven't researched that yet.
BTW, I do not have runout checking capability.

[The Old Coach]

Those primers are not showing you high pressure. They are showing you that your firing pin is too small for the hole in the bolt. End of story.

[bigedp51]

Change primers to one with a cup thickness of .025 and the problem will go away. Also make sure you are not bumping the shoulder back too far and creating too much head clearance.

You are not the first person that has had the same problem with CCI 400 primers with a cup thickness of .020




PRIMERS AND PRESSURE
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

- Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win SR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers are also used in heavy handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.

- Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2.

Remington 6 1/2 primer warning

Warning:

Remington does not recommend this primer for use in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 204 Ruger, 17 Remington Fireball.
Use the 7-1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primer in these cartridges.
This 6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet.

[WV1951]

Those primers are not showing you high pressure. They are showing you that your firing pin is too small for the hole in the bolt. End of story.

Thanks, Coach
I stumbled on a year old thread from Texas 10 regarding this very issue and the saga he had trying to work with Savage. Frustrating at best. I watched a video from Gre-Tan on how he sleeves/bushes the firing pin channel to tighten it up. If I can figure out to to get my bolt apart, I am going to try and check the slop.
I have looked at a number of pics and videos and I am cautiously optimistic. The flattish primer still cause a little concern. Obviously, opinions are varied, and I do not have a chrono.

[WV1951]

Thanks, Biged for those nice pics. I am not quite that bad as you can see below. Going to investigate the sloppy firing pin.
Also, should be no slop in headspace. Only using fire formed from my chamber. Not bumping back.

From left to right
Norma factory 55 gr.
Range brass
55gr. 24.2gr. H4895
69gr. 24.4gr. H4895
Un-fired prepped case

Wish I could get sharper pics, but the slight cratering(sloppy pin?) and the flatness does show. Maybe I am being OCD.

[rjtfroggy]

WV1951, from this group of pictures it appears that your primers are not fully seated and a couple look to be backing out when fired. left to right #1, 3, 4 and # 5 is not fully seated in pocket.
Now it may be the angle of pic. or just my old eyes but if it were me I would clean up the primer pockets real good and use a lot more force and get them to seat fully.
I have used thousands of standard CCI SR primers and have never had a FTF, cratered or pierced one and my load is just shy of being compressed with a 60 gr. Sierra fbhp with a COAL of 2.221.
Another tid bit I personally shoot well over 5000 rounds of center fire each year and use nothing but standard CCI LR or SR primers with out complaints or problems.
I do agree with BigEd and maybe he will see the same thing with this set of pictures that I am seeing.

[WV1951]

rt, the far left is a factory Norma round. Second from left is a piece of range brass I picked up. The others are with my Lee hand prime and they definitely feel seated when I squeeze. I apply pretty good force when seating and still so new enough at this that I don't want to crush them. So your CCI 400's don't have the flat edges like the in the pics enough?

[bigedp51]

Pressure Signs . . . . and what to look for
http://www.larrywillis.com/pressure_signs.html

[WV1951]

Thanks for that link. I has read this previously. I am actually close to three, but maybe between three and four. This is what throws me off. Hodgdon shows 24.0-26.0c and I am at 24.4. Granted for a 12 twist and mine is 9.

[RC20]

Is that smoke on the Normal case? I.e. far left?

There are some more aspects to consider.

The primer should be slightly lower than the case head. I.e recessed -003 or .005.

FC brass is heavier and in my opinion that means less case capacity. It might be enough to push over the edge.

Bolt disassembly is pretty easy once you get the glue broke loose on the bolt.

You do need to pop the button on the back into the fired notch. Also need to reset it when done!

I use a long handled hex wrench, towel on the bench and put it at an angle and smack it with a rubber mallet.

You should be able to trip the button and see how the firing pin looks up front.

[WV1951]

RC20, I should have noted that the discoloration on the Norma case caught my eye as well. It must be some kind sealant. It is on unfired as well.
The primer is flush or slightly recessed. -.003-.005, I dunno. I am aware it should be slightly recessed. I feel them bottom out and I have pressed a bit harder on one to see if it will go deeper, but it only causes the primer flatten some.
I did get my bolt apart with the foot on the bolt and hex key method. The firing pin measured .068 and the firing pin hole was .0725(maybe .072). Exact measurements that Texas10 posted in a similar thread about a year ago. I have a Savage contact now, and today emailed asking about the firing pin/hole sloppiness.
This entire issue is a result of the difference in looks between my fired primers and factory ones. Mine just seem too flat, but maybe not an issue.

[The Old Coach]

Thanks, Coach
I stumbled on a year old thread from Texas 10 regarding this very issue and the saga he had trying to work with Savage. Frustrating at best. I watched a video from Gre-Tan on how he sleeves/bushes the firing pin channel to tighten it up. If I can figure out to to get my bolt apart, I am going to try and check the slop.
I have looked at a number of pics and videos and I am cautiously optimistic. The flattish primer still cause a little concern. Obviously, opinions are varied, and I do not have a chrono.

If it were me, I'd get a series of pin gages to measure the firing pin hole. www.gageshop.com is my usual source. Graded ZZ is fine for your purpose. I run into this problem quite often with the antique Stevens single shot rifles that I rehabilitate. Bushing the hole is almost always part of the program. Grade ZZ pins are cheap. I also use them to gage revolver cylinder throats. Nothing else is as accurate until you get into $200,000 Zeiss coordinate measuring machines.

[WV1951]

If it were me, I'd get a series of pin gages to measure the firing pin hole.

OK. I checked.

I did get my bolt apart with the foot on the bolt and hex key method. The firing pin measured .068 and the firing pin hole was .0725(maybe .072). Exact measurements that Texas10 posted in a similar thread about a year ago. I have a Savage contact now, and today emailed asking about the firing pin/hole sloppiness.

[creedman6.5]

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

I don't crimp any of my loads, for ar or bolt rifles. None of my rigs have any recoil since they're all outfitted with brakes or cans.


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[creedman6.5]

SR primer crater in itself is not a sign of impending doom. Add a crater with an ejector wipe, difficult bolt release, expanded head and loose primer pocket, it is.

I agree. If my sweet load for a rifle happens to flatten the primer slightly, I typically don't sweat it. The ejector wipe (as well as the other signs you've mentioned) is a definite high pressure sign and should be noted. I like to use good quality brass, so I do what I can to prolong its life. So long as I'm not giving up accuracy to avoid slightly above ideal pressures, and by that I mean a little bit of flattening of the primers. Anything more than that and I will back down the charge, play with seating depth, or even try a different bullet all together. My go to are Berger 140gr vld hunting, and 110gr hybrids for long range rigs (a 6.5 creed, and 6 creed), and for my coyote rigs I run sierra game king 65gr btsp's on my .223's, and 75gr swift sciroccos(great performing bullets with a very high bc, but the cost is higher than giraffe p#**¥)for my 1:8 twist 22-250.


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[creedman6.5]

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

I don't crimp for my ar either, and totally agree with the expander comments. I get pretty solid results with Hornady dies and seaters, I do add the micrometer deal to my seating dies for repeatability though. I like the bullet aligning/concentricity insert on the hornady seaters. Could see the possible need for a light crimp on some of the ar10's that didn't have any means of recoil reduction though.


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[Texas10]

WV, the batch of firing pins I received from Savage mostly measured .069 to .070. I say mostly because they're all out of round by up to .0005.

Looks like you've got between .004 and .005 clearance in your bolt head, and a new pin could knock that down to .003 or less and probably fix your blanking issues. They're not expensive, but you'll have to complete a waiver of Liability and fax to them before they'll ship to you. I was able to buy "all you want" according to CS at Savage. Your response might be different, so expect what ever they throw at you. They won't hand pick a pin for you, so you have to buy several and fit them your self.

If you run up against a wall at Savage, PM me and I'll send you a new one I bought that measures .0697.

[Scott Evans]

I've got several spare pins laying about and confer with Tx10, .065" to .069" for mine.

If you work the tip to a flatter semi-hemisphere and not a full hemisphere shape the sharp edged cratering pretty much disappears

[WV1951]

Thanks for the offer Texas10. Will keep that in mind. I'll shoot you a PM if I decide to do that.

Scott, I did that very thing last night and took my protrusion down about .003. I am now at .045 protrusion, which is a bit more than the .035 recommendation, but might help some. Should know tomorrow, if I go out.