Which would be best

[bigedp51]

Below makes you wonder if all the brass prep is worth the effort.

Save $$ By Using Lake City 5.56x45mm Once-Fired GI Brass
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/10/save-by-using-lake-city-5-56x45mm-once-fired-gi-brass/ (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/10/save-by-using-lake-city-5-56x45mm-once-fired-gi-brass/)

Accuracy Potential of Mil-Surp 5.56×45 Brass

So, how accurate can previously-fired GI surplus brass be in a good National Match AR-15? Well, here’s a data point from many years ago that might be of interest. A High Power shooter who wrote for the late Precision Shooting magazine took a Bill Wylde-built AR match rifle to a registered Benchrest match. His first 5-round group ever fired in a BR match was officially measured at 0.231″ at 200 hundred yards. This was fired in front of witnesses, while using a moving target backer that confirmed all five rounds were fired.He recounted that his ammo was loaded progressively with factory 52gr match bullets and a spherical powder using mixed years of LC brass with no special preparation whatsoever. Obviously, this was “exceptional”. However, he had no difficulty obtaining consistent 0.5-0.6 MOA accuracy at 200 yards using LC brass and a generic “practice” load that was not tuned to his rifle.

Buying quality uniform brass can save time and prep work. Below .223 cases by manufacture and uniformity.

https://i.imgur.com/PExmCCk.jpg

[Robinhood]

I agree Ed. I started with LC Fired from a Machine gun. Then I got my hands on some L match and LR. It did good but I noticed that after 300 my scores were worse than they should have been.

For top quality brass, most people starting out can't fathom spending 60 to 100 dollars on 100pcs of brass for Lapua or one of the other top quality brass makers. It might be economics or frugality (Is that a word). Some guys have no problem spending the money. If your not one to make that jump and you feel like your groups should be better, you will gravitate towards something akin to a "match" prep. You like info from Accurate shooter and honestly some of that info is invaluable to people wanting to improve their skills. I took some time to look up information that follows what I believe a lot of great shooters follow. Step 8 is relevant to this conversation.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/


A little bit of information gathered from Accurate shooter is that the IBS world record 1000 yd 5 shot group used brass that was annealed after every firing.

[bigedp51]

I agree Ed. I started with LC Fired from a Machine gun. Then I got my hands on some L match and LR. It did good but I noticed that after 300 my scores were worse than they should have been.

For top quality brass, most people starting out can't fathom spending 60 to 100 dollars on 100pcs of brass for Lapua or one of the other top quality brass makers. It might be economics or frugality (Is that a word). Some guys have no problem spending the money. If your not one to make that jump and you feel like your groups should be better, you will gravitate towards something akin to a "match" prep. You like info from Accurate shooter and honestly some of that info is invaluable to people wanting to improve their skills. I took some time to look up information that follows what I believe a lot of great shooters follow. Step 8 is relevant to this conversation.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/


A little bit of information gathered from Accurate shooter is that the IBS world record 1000 yd 5 shot group used brass that was annealed after every firing.

Step 8 is weight sorting the cases, then step 9 is a step back into the dark ages with neck sizing?????????

https://i.imgur.com/HJmzuZa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg

[Orezona]

it was only a matter of time until this came up! IMO, EC has explained it better in more current videos. He shares a ton of inside information because others did it for him.

[Fuj']

What's not in that upper pic is IMI (Israeli) and Norma. I use mainly those two.
The IMI is usually only offered in military type cases. The lot I bought of 7.62
IMI cases for wild catting was a dream to sort. Same with Norma. I also use
Nosler (most made by Norma) but bought in bulk. Sort is more extensive for these
but brass life is as good as it gets. My match brass get's ditched after 6 firings
After that, it's just used for new powder work ups.

As for neck sizing !! My FL sizers are honed at the neck to be the same as
my chamber. I do put them thru a collet mandrel sizer for a .0015 tweak.
The targets confirm what I'm doing.

[Mr.Snerdly]

If you have issues with fit in the chamber because they (the cases) were trimmed too short,
load them to a jam into the lands and fire form.
After that, be careful that you don't push the shoulders back too far and have that same issue all over again.
Me? Never bothered to weigh or sort by length. And short cases got blown out from being jammed into the lands.
All loaded rounds produce bug holes so I don't get too picky. 5 shot groups that are covered with a dime.;):cool:
And, I use Precision Bushing Bump Dies so my cases don't grow and don't need much in the way of trimming.

I thought when you loaded to touch the lands you could get dangerous pressures. Is this just another thing I read that isn't so? What powder charge would be best, from the lightest to heaviest listed in a reloading manual? Is Frontier brass considered decent? If it is considered trash I don't want to waste powder and even the cheap bullets getting it in spec, besides more wear and tear on the barrel This is mostly Frontier that is so horribly out of spec. I can't understand how anyone could resize them .100" under what is normally found in factory ammo.

I did sort another brand that was within about .003" and it seemed to shoot a lot better than the Frontier that was so horribly out of spec, average .6 MOA with the smallest being about .35 MOA.

[Robinhood]

Step 8 is weight sorting the cases, then step 9 is a step back into the dark ages with neck sizing?????????

https://i.imgur.com/HJmzuZa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg


We all continue to neck size, at least I do. My reamed and honed full length sizer does it for me. My bullets don't get any tension if I don't.

What I get from this is that you don't weigh your cases. It would have been cool to see one of those gif's proving weight sorted cases with neck tension makes bad ammo. :)

[yobuck]

Absolutely! At 200 or 300 velocity changes are not as apparent. When stretching it out, the further you go the more obvious minor differences show up. Shoot three or five shot groups at 100 tells you little about a longer range target or even LRH load. And even less if you happen to put your action in a quality target stock or chassis in an attempt to compete.

Like you said yobuck, having everything else in order is priority. It is when you have refined your shooting skills and learned to optimize your equipment and your best still isn't where you believe it should be.

Hunting loads are a different animal. First shot accuracy is everything. If you have not killed it with three maybe you should tighten up your acceptable distance or change cartridges.

Good post buck.
Well understand that long range hunting is the only type of hunting ive done for about 50 years.
And i do it at a place that is as good as it gets for doing that east of the Mississippi.
Over the last 40 years or so that area has become a meca for long range hunting.
A large percentage of the many long range hunters who hunt there, myself included, have had at least some experience at Williamsport.
But fact is that means nothing when it comes to hunting long range.
Not that shooting skill isnt important, it just isnt the most important.
The most successful long range hunters i know, dont shoot at all during the off season.
Come fall when the leaves come down you will see some practice rock shooting on the hillsides, but thats it for most of them, including our group.
As for first round hits, most are, at least inside 1000 yards where more than 90 percent of all the shots are made.
Dont forget, a 1” group is also minit of deer up to about 1000 yds, especially when shooting from a bench.
As for the longer distances, conditions not skill level will be the big factor.
Fact is that a very accurate gun and an excellant shooter are not the most essential items needed to be successful.
Ask any experienced long range hunter what items of equipment he deems to be the most valuable and be prepared to be surprised by the answer.
If the rules of the game we play call for a first round hit, then thats the rule we all live by if we want to play.
But when hunting there are no such rules, and rather than condem a first round miss, consider the advantage that miss created.
If the rules of that game we play allowed for just one sighter shot, would it be helpfull or harmfull?
As for the answer to the question, you can take my custom made gun, take the rangefinder, but please dont take my chainsaw. lol
The answer is optics, and im not referring to rifle scopes, and i am being serious.
First off you wont find them, at least many of them, and you probably wont hit them without the help of a good spotter using very good optics.
The scenarios you might dream up while lounging at home, will be a far cry from reality in the real world.
As for the shooting part, its kid stuff for the most part if you go about it right.

[yobuck]

We all continue to neck size, at least I do. My reamed and honed full length sizer does it for me. My bullets don't get any tension if I don't.

What I get from this is that you don't weigh your cases. It would have been cool to see one of those gif's proving weight sorted cases with neck tension makes bad ammo. :)
Well theres apparently another guy down there who like the concrete finisher/shooter dosent subscribe to the neck size criteria.
I think he goes by the name of Speedy, and something Spanish sounding. lol
Anyway ive watched videos of these two having a conversation on this subject.
Now its far beyond me to have any opinions on these type topics.
My one and only reason for full length sizing is getting the empty out rather than any chance it wont come out while hunting.
But obviously some pretty impressive names in the accuracy shooting world have come to the conclusion it might just be a better way.
I frankly was of the opinion that no resizing at all was the way the best accuracy minded shooters loaded.
Along with just dumping the powder directly into the case with out weighing it by at least some of them.

[charlie b]

Yep, there are some who shoot benchrest without resizing at all. Takes a specially sized chamber to do that.

When I looked at EC's reasons for not neck sizing the only thing I could get out of it was the ease of chambering and especially ejecting the brass. Getting a case stuck in competition is a killer. But, my only reason for only neck sizing is cause sometimes I get lazy and don't want to lube up the cases. These days most of the time I FL size and then run them into the Lee collet neck sizer. A good neck expander could replace that die.

Seating bullets to touch the lands will increase pressures. If you use max loads and then seat the bullet into the lands you will be over pressure. If you use charges a bit below max then you can seat the bullet into the lands without dangerous pressures. How much below max depends on the specific cartridge, bullet, throat, etc.

[Robinhood]

How do you get the case neck to hold the bullet if you don't size it? Isn't a full length die sizing the neck?

I have seen Yobucks optics, Impressive. I would love to come visit deer season to witness these guys shoot. As sniper as you can get.


These days most of the time I FL size and then run them into the Lee collet neck sizer. How I ultimately ended up sizing FTR brass. Very consistent neck tension when I combined it with regular annealing.

[charlie b]

The guys I know of who did not size had chambers made such that the spring back after firing was enough to hold the bullet. They seated the bullet by hand (wilson dies) since it required very little force. They also did not anneal the cases. I can't disagree with their method since they shot in the .0's.

[yobuck]

The guys I know of who did not size had chambers made such that the spring back after firing was enough to hold the bullet. They seated the bullet by hand (wilson dies) since it required very little force. They also did not anneal the cases. I can't disagree with their method since they shot in the .0's.
Many years ago i thought i might be interested in varmit class benchrest.
From where i lived in s.e. Pa it wasent all that far to a range in Wapwalapen
then run by the Harts, who at the time made much of their living from benchrest.
Mind you now this was more than 50 years ago, before i became involved in long range shooting/hunting.
I just went to the range on a match day and observed and talked with various shooters.
I came away very impressed, but also having doubts of me having the type mind for that.
But the groups i saw pretty much all looked alike, at least to the naked eye.
I watched them load ammo right there at the range.
Of coarse they had seperated their cases, but there was no resizing done by the ones i watched.
They used hand tools to knock out the fired primer, dumped powder directly from an accurised powder measure, and seated a new bullet using an arbor press.
I questioned one guy about not measuring powder on a scale, and he said small differences dont really matter.
So my question is regarding that, have we ever observed how much difference even a 1/2 grain difference makes in point of impact at 100 yds?
We can argue that it will at 1000 yds, and im not advocating 1/2 gr. difference is o k.
But there are so many other varieables to consider, why worry about that one?
Does it really matter why you missed anyway?
It for sure does for some, but for me it dosent matter at all.
What happens next is all that matters, and we can argue later about the miss.
Which is why i am not a competitor and subject to rules.
As for the resizing, or in that case no resizing, were dealing with real mechanics and not just some weekend handiman with the rifle building.
And so is Speedy Gonzales and Eric Cortina.
It starts and pretty much ends right there with the rifle.
Any of us will shoot well with a good gun, and a good gun will enjoy eating pretty much anything we feed it.
And if it dont, sell it, dont be screwing around trying to make it happy.
Certainly there will always be loads and shooters who are just going to be a bit better at doing it.
But we need to ask ourselves, whats important for me?

[Mr.Snerdly]

I believe there was a guy that used the Lee Classic Loader that held some kind of a benchrest record for 7 years. Of course, I know that couldn't be done today but you can do pretty good with modestly priced equipment.

[charlie b]

Yep, we all have different goals in our shooting. Which is why we do things differently.

You are right, at 100yd you can get away with a lot when it comes to powder charge. Also why the 'short range' folks favor plain base bullets, there is less chance for the escaping gases to upset the bullet.

If you can find it, read the Houston Warehouse story. The guys there had very specific things that made a difference, and powder load was not deemed critical. IIRC they also preferred some pretty run of the mill Remington bullets.

Long range is another story. 10 fps difference means a lot at 1000yd when the 10 ring is 5".

Rifle and loading. Cortina has a video with a fan who brought his own rifle out to learn how to shoot at range (IIRC an RPR). After trying to get a decent group and failing, Cortina got his rifle and loads out. The guy immediately got some decent groups. Rifle means a lot when you get to a certain point. Cortina pointed out in one video that when a barrel shoots bad he swaps it out. Bad to him was 1/2MOA at 100yd. Those guys shoot a LOT and go through at least a couple barrels a year.

[Mr.Snerdly]

^^^^I heard that about flat base bullets but sometimes that theory doesn't work. I bought some Hornady 60 grain V Max a few days ago and they are horrible. I tried them in the 223 Axis, 223 Remington and 22-250 Savage and I think I one group below 1". The heavy barrel 22-250 was slightly better than the Axis but not much. I had some 55 grain Hornady and shot a few groups after the 60s and they were below 1/2", best was about .43". I am finished with Hornady bullets. I also tried some of their 68 grain bullets earlier and they were a disaster too. Maybe some have good luck with them but once I get burned it takes a lot to change my mind, just like the Vortex Viper scopes. I will never buy anything Vortex makes again after 2 bad ones.

[charlie b]

Interesting how different some experiences are. I have two Vortex scopes (Viper and Diamondback) and like them both.

Hornady bullets. If you stay with the ELD match bullets they are pretty good. I had good luck with the 75gn ELD match in .223. Their 68gn HPBT match bullet (not ELD) is pretty bad. Don't know why, but, I just could not get them under MOA at all. Sometimes as much as 2MOA. I keep a bunch of their cheap 55gn FMJBT bullets. They are good for close to MOA, but, that's about it. For $11 a box (pre-Covid) they are good plinkers. Compare to the $35/100 for the 77gn SMK's I usually shoot.

I also have had decent luck with the ELD match bullets in .30cal. They are in the same class as the SMK's I have shot. I also keep a bunch of the 168 AMax around for the Garand. They are good for me out to 300m but then start to fall off a bit. Not bad for a bit less in price. Most of the time I load Lapua or Berger in the .308 (if I am not shooting cast).

[Mr.Snerdly]

I keep a bunch of their cheap 55gn FMJBT bullets. They are good for close to MOA, but, that's about it. For $11 a box (pre-Covid) they are good plinkers. Compare to the $35/100 for the 77gn SMK's I usually shoot.



I have had pretty good luck with Speer bullets for those a little more reasonably priced. The 75 grain HP Varmint for $16 something per 100 aren't quite as good as the Nosler 70 grain but they are about half the price and maybe .1 MOA less accurate for me in the 243. The Speer 55 grain .224 work very well in the Remington, not quite as well in the Axis. Also, it pays to check around on price. I buy a lot of stuff from Midway but they are like everyone else, some things can be gotten cheaper elsewhere. Powder Valley has the 69 grain Sierra Match Kings for $26.60 per hundred vs Midway at $$32.95, 77 grain $15.44 per 50 vs $24.49 at Midway. The 69 grain are out of stock at Powder Valley but the 77 grain says they are available and I think I will order a couple boxes.

[yobuck]

Yep, we all have different goals in our shooting. Which is why we do things differently.

You are right, at 100yd you can get away with a lot when it comes to powder charge. Also why the 'short range' folks favor plain base bullets, there is less chance for the escaping gases to upset the bullet.

If you can find it, read the Houston Warehouse story. The guys there had very specific things that made a difference, and powder load was not deemed critical. IIRC they also preferred some pretty run of the mill Remington bullets.

Long range is another story. 10 fps difference means a lot at 1000yd when the 10 ring is 5".

Rifle and loading. Cortina has a video with a fan who brought his own rifle out to learn how to shoot at range (IIRC an RPR). After trying to get a decent group and failing, Cortina got his rifle and loads out. The guy immediately got some decent groups. Rifle means a lot when you get to a certain point. Cortina pointed out in one video that when a barrel shoots bad he swaps it out. Bad to him was 1/2MOA at 100yd. Those guys shoot a LOT and go through at least a couple barrels a year.
How can we determine that it makes a difference Charlie?
We do know that the wind can blow them out, but does it ever blow them in?
How come the record holders cant duplicate their own record at 1000 yds?
Ive known a few who cant hit a deer. lol
I mean there have been 2 1000 yd record groups that combined as for time, span almost 1/4 of a century.
Think of the number of rounds fired during that period in pursuit of a new record.
When are we going to stop convincing ourselves what it takes, and realize that it takes the same thing as winning the lottery.
Sooner of later somebody does.

[Robinhood]

If you are shooting 100-200 yds the flat based bullets are probably your best option. They tend to stabilize faster.