reloading advice

[rmkey]

Most of my dies are entry level and I need to upgrade soon for .308 and .22-250. No point in pursuing accuracy with Lee or bottom line RCBS. I have a limited budget so does anyone have a suggestion for intermediate priced dies for these calibers? I am looking at Hornady New Dimension Match grade for .308 and don't really see anyone making "match grade for 22-250. I am not a competition shooter by any stretch just looking for sub-moa accuracy. Any suggestions?

[LoneWolf]

No reason you can't get the accuracy you're looking for out of the dies you have currently unless there is something actually wrong with them....

[LoneWolf]

That being said, my preference is Forster or Redding.

[BB68]

a precision scale is what I would buy first

[rmkey]

a precision scale is what I would buy first
I do have a digital scale Lyman I think and a triple beam to verify the electronic ones. I use Forrester for my 260 but I am looking to upgrade my 22-250 and 308 dies. I like the idea of neck size bushings and a micrometer seater. Everyone has 308 but not necessarily 22-250 competition grade. Just wondering what folks preferences are.

[Fotheringill]

Before you take that plunge, you might want to invest in a Lee Collet neck sizing die. The cost is under $30 and you might be very surprised at the minimal runout you will get. Other than that, I would suggest Redding, if they make it in your size, The Competition die is really good.

[LoneWolf]

in my opinion the micrometer seaters are completely unnecessary.... They take just as long to set up as a standard seating die and the lines on them are "close" at best. I would go with a Forster Bushing-Bump Sizing die and a Forester seater. They get the job done without issue for the average guy.

[rmkey]

in my opinion the micrometer seaters are completely unnecessary.... They take just as long to set up as a standard seating die and the lines on them are "close" at best. I would go with a Forster Bushing-Bump Sizing die and a Forester seater. They get the job done without issue for the average guy.
THANKS you just saved me as i was about to get a rcbs with micrometer. I don’t have money to waste on something that is not necessary. Your suggestion is exactly what i use with 260 and they do seem to be good. It’s just that micrometer sitting on the seating die looks like precision!

[noname]

FWIW-I have loaded thousands or rounds with the lee dies..I admit i'm not to fond of their
press's,but still use one as well as one of the RCBS partner press's...In my opinion
you do not need a huge heavy press unless your getting in buller swaging or maye 50 cal...

[thatguyshm]

I would recommend searching eBay for a case concentricity gauge. In my 22-250, I have a basic RCBS seating die and a Forster benchrest seating die. Granted I have the RCBS set up for 60gr Vmax and the Forster for 53gr Vmax, but I consistently get less then .001" run-out with the RCBS and .002"-.003" with the Forster.

I would check to see if there is a problem before you reinvent the wheel. There are different seating techniques to help minimize it also. I prefer to move my ram up until I just get the base to start seating, then I bring the ram back down an inch and slowly seat back up to my final depth. The way I see it, if you are misaligned slightly, you can put pressure on one side of the neck or the other while seating in one motion, causing bullet jacket scraping, but if you just get it started, take the pressure of your bullet, I find it recenters itself and slides down the neck a bit straighter.

For the 22-250, anything you can do to help not damage the thin varmint jacket will help.

SHM

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[LoneWolf]

I would recommend searching eBay for a case concentricity gauge. In my 22-250, I have a basic RCBS seating die and a Forster benchrest seating die. Granted I have the RCBS set up for 60gr Vmax and the Forster for 53gr Vmax, but I consistently get less then .001" run-out with the RCBS and .002"-.003" with the Forster.

I would check to see if there is a problem before you reinvent the wheel. There are different seating techniques to help minimize it also. I prefer to move my ram up until I just get the base to start seating, then I bring the ram back down an inch and slowly seat back up to my final depth. The way I see it, if you are misaligned slightly, you can put pressure on one side of the neck or the other while seating in one motion, causing bullet jacket scraping, but if you just get it started, take the pressure of your bullet, I find it recenters itself and slides down the neck a bit straighter.

For the 22-250, anything you can do to help not damage the thin varmint jacket will help.

SHM

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I've never checked for concentricity. Believe it is a small factor to consider if all your other practices are good... In fact, I doubt I'll ever own a concentricity gauge...

[bigedp51]

The biggest cause of neck runout is when the expander is locked down off center and the expander pulls the case neck off center.

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies.

A Lee die has a decapper clamp that "should' center the expander when tightened unlike the RCBS type with slop in the threads and a locking nut that will allow a off center expander.

Any time you reduce the neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die it will induce neck runout. And why you are told to reduce the diameter in two steps when reducing the neck diameter .004 or more.

The Forster full length benchrest dies have a high mounted floating expander that can not pull your case necks off center. The case neck is held and centered in the die when the expander enters the case neck and makes the most concentric cases of "ANY" type die I have ever used.

Bottom line, forget any bushing type dies and buy the Forster benchrest dies. Runout is worse with any type neck sizing die because the body and neck of the case are not fully supported.

Below I retrofitted Forster expander and spindle assemblies to all my older RCBS dies. The RCBS expander on the left is raised as high as it will move compared to the Forster assembly that fits RCBS dies.

https://i.imgur.com/5kfnKwd.jpg

Below a modified Forster expander and spindle assembly fitted to a Redding full length die. Why drag that long Redding expander through the case neck and induce neck runout. A rubber O-ring has been added below the lock ring to allow the expander to float. And the spindle was cut shorter to allow the expander to enter the case neck when it is held in the die.

https://i.imgur.com/kWbieba.jpg

Also Forster is the only die manufacture that will hone the neck of the die to your desired diameter "IF" you think it is overworking the brass.

Bottom line, if you want concentric cases with little to no neck runout then try a Forster full length benchrest die and seating die and save money.

https://i.imgur.com/Y7Iyv8o.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MomXeUI.gif

[bigedp51]

Also full length resizing gives the cartridge "wiggle room" for the bullet to be self aligning with the bore. And I belong to the Rat turd in the violin case club. :cool:

Below Kevin Thomas of Team Lapua USA and who also worked in the Sierra ballistic test lab.

https://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg

Below German Salazar from the "Rifleman's Journal is answering a question about "partial full length resizing". And he is explaining the benefits of full length resizing and how it helps minimize the effects of neck runout. Also the military considers .003 or less neck runout to be match grade ammunition.

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."

My point being it doesn't do any good to neck size a case that warped and became banana shaped after firing. Full length resizing helps reduce the effects of a case with unequal case wall thicknesses meaning the average Remchester case. And a runout gauge can check for warped cases.

Its a shame but American quality control is governed by the company shareholders and a major reason why so many people buy Lapua brass.



NECO CONCENTRICITY, WALL THICKNESS AND RUNOUT GAUGE http://www.neconos.com/NEWDIAL2.JPG



Also referred to as "The Case Gauge," this item is designed to measure:
1) The curved "banana" shape of the cartridge case;
2) The relative wall thickness variation of a cartridge case;
3) The cartridge case head out-of-squareness;
4) Individual Bullets - out-of-round "egg shape" and/or
curved "banana" shape (excepting very small bullets);
5) The seated bullet and cartridge runout of loaded rounds. The accuracy of any firearm is determined -- and limited -- by the quality of the ammunition shot in it. The effect of imperfections in ammunition is cumulative; each flaw adds to the influence of all others. Precision shooters spend much time and effort "uniforming" cartridge cases, using advanced techniques to eliminate variation. Yet until recently, one of the most important of these variations has not been susceptible to detection by any device readily available to marksmen.
Normal manufacturing tolerances cause brass cartridge cases to vary in wall thickness around the circumference of their bodies. Under the stress of firing, a case with such variation stretches more readily along its thin side, transferring more pressure to the bolt face at that point and introducing an unbalanced force which contributes to bolt whip and vibration of the barreled action in its bedding. This whip and vibration varies from one shot to the next as cartridges are fired with their thin sides randomly oriented at different angles, causing reduced accuracy. The problem is made even worse if the brass is too hard or springy to completely fireform to the shape of the chamber, in which event the greater stretching of the case's thin side will cause it to develop a curve along the length of its body. These "banana" cases cannot hold a bullet aligned with and centered in the bore, undercutting the effectiveness of the handloader's careful case preparation.
Fortunately the accuracy problems caused by wall-thickness variation can be minimized, or perhaps eliminated, if all cases are "indexed" -- fired with their thin sides always oriented the same direction in the chamber. This causes bolt whip to be minimized and consistent, and, while bullets will still be misaligned, they will all be misaligned the same way, which often produces accuracy like that of perfectly aligned and concentric ammunition.

[LoneWolf]

^^^^ there’s more than one way to get results. I prefer to use a Forster Bushing-bump Die then follow it with a Sinclair .262 Mandrel Die for my 6.5x47


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[rmkey]

I would recommend searching eBay for a case concentricity gauge. In my 22-250, I have a basic RCBS seating die and a Forster benchrest seating die. Granted I have the RCBS set up for 60gr Vmax and the Forster for 53gr Vmax, but I consistently get less then .001" run-out with the RCBS and .002"-.003" with the Forster.

I would check to see if there is a problem before you reinvent the wheel. There are different seating techniques to help minimize it also. I prefer to move my ram up until I just get the base to start seating, then I bring the ram back down an inch and slowly seat back up to my final depth. The way I see it, if you are misaligned slightly, you can put pressure on one side of the neck or the other while seating in one motion, causing bullet jacket scraping, but if you just get it started, take the pressure of your bullet, I find it recenters itself and slides down the neck a bit straighter.

For the 22-250, anything you can do to help not damage the thin varmint jacket will help.

SHM

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalky

Thanks much. I do use a concentracity gauge and I correct anything over .003 with .001 preferable.
I have been using Lee dies and full length resizing. It seems reasonable that if the cartridge is already expanded to chamber dimensions it could contribute to accuracy. So I did order the Forrester dies with the bushings and neck bump back.

[Robinhood]

Welcome back BigEd. Good to see you posting again.

[Marine]

I neck size my FV12 with a Lee collet die and get groups as small as 1/4''. When I full length I set my Lee FL die to barely set the shoulder back.

[Cornbread]

Most of my dies are entry level and I need to upgrade soon for .308 and .22-250. No point in pursuing accuracy with Lee or bottom line RCBS. I have a limited budget so does anyone have a suggestion for intermediate priced dies for these calibers? I am looking at Hornady New Dimension Match grade for .308 and don't really see anyone making "match grade for 22-250. I am not a competition shooter by any stretch just looking for sub-moa accuracy. Any suggestions?

I have gotten 1/2 moa accuracy from lee and rcbs dies, hornady as well. All these rifles have one thing in common. A good custom barrel. The most important thing is to have a quality barrel,trigger and nut behind the trigger. Then, find a load your rifle likes. Minimally setting the shoulders,consistent powder charges. Use a balance beam and trickle. Most cheap electronic scales are junk. Seating the bullets 1/2 way and then spinning the case 180 to finnish seating is a neat little trick. I do like the hornady bullet seater on the new dimension dies.

As for the fl, neck sizing debate. Go to the accurate shooter forum and see what the pro long range guys are doing. They are fls with bushing dies to control neck tension. They are turning necks. If you are using bushing dies with uneven neck wall thickness you are creating problems. They anneal cases. They use a good quality scale. They do use micrometer dies and or an arbor press to seat bullets. For these guys it's all about having consistent sizing and neck tension to have consistent bullet release. Low es and sd are the deal at long range. 30 fps is huge at 1000 yds.

The poor mans way is to use a body die and a lee collet die. Be prepared to polish the mandrell as I have not had one that gave enough neck tension to keep bullets from moving in mag without turning down the mandrell.

[bigedp51]

Erik Cortina Team Lapua USA, and member of the rat turd in the violin case club
(http://www.lapua.com/en/lapua-team/lapua-team-usa/team-members-usa.html)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g)

[Burr]

There are lots of ways to progress with your reloading skills, tools, and procedures. Thought I would mention I have gone the direction of Wilson hand dies. To get started and keep the cost down I use a drill press instead of an arbor press. It's not as portable as an arbor, but I don't need that portability and it's worked well enough I still don't have an arbor press. As mentioned above, I don't spend the extra on a micrometer seater. It's takes just a little more to get the length set, but once it's set, it's set. I'll suggest something different than dies that can start you down the road than dies though. Turn your necks. And if you don't have a comparator, buy a set that will measure off both the bullet ogive, and shoulder length. Those are fairly inexpensive to get started, even with your existing dies. Turn necks, use a comparator to get your setup exact even with your existing FL die, but get a seater that will support the entire case while seating. Nothing wrong with a good book too.