Five things anyone wanting to shoot long range should know.

[toddcdozer]

Seems like some on here still consider shooting past 600 yds to be a black art. Its not. It is 100% math. The shooter that can shoot a 1 MOA group at 100.....can do the same at 1760.....if his gun is up to the task and the spotter is doing his job. The spotter, whether it be the triggerman or a separate spotter is the REAL KEY to LR shooting.

1. Use enough gun. Going transonic is just another variable you don't need. Shorter TOF = less issues. Lots of ways to get to 1 mile supersonic. 7mm 180 or 195 at 3k+ / 30 cal 215-230 at 3k / 338 300 at 2800+. Yeah a 308 can do it, but why make it any harder than it already is? Being able to spot splash is so important at LR. Shoot the biggest fastest rig you can stomach....yeah I know Billy bobs Creed hits at 1 mile. Great, doesn't make it a good choice.

2. Use enough scope. Trying to dial at ELR can be too slow. A Christmas tree setup + rail + 1000yd base zero. Yes you can dial to 1 mile but having both is the easy route.

3. Use a good APP that is CORRECTED properly. Make sure your app matches your DOPE. If it doesn't, tweak it till it does. And make 100% sure you have good data, weather info, windspeed etc.

4. Use a spotter whenever possible. 2 brains are better than 1 and there is a lot going on. A spotter isn't someone who you pick up at the bar. Its someone you have shot 1000s of rounds with that can use glass AND translate the hit or miss into a correction for a 2nd rd hit every time. The spotter is the REAL HERO in LR shooting. Anyone can pull a trigger, calling shots is the real secret.

5. Shoot into backstops that provide FEEDBACK. If I fire a round and cant spot the hit....I AM DONE. Look for dry dusty areas such as vertical bluffs. Avoid shooting into flat areas, this is very difficult to figure the elevation on. Ponds or water are also GREAT for spotting. You can spot your own in water, still helps to have a spotter.

Remember a few things, this stuff is 100% MATH. There is a mathematical reason you miss or hit. It is not magic. Any modern decent rifle is capable of running under .5MOA at 1 mile if over the transonic range and shooting a well developed load with good ES numbers.

All 5 of the above points are important BUT if I had to opine, I would say #5 is the MOST IMPORTANT. I got pretty decent at LR pretty quick because I had a lot of red dirt bluffs with rocks to shoot at, barren wheat fields and a couple of huge ponds full of turtles that you could set up on from above and anywhere from 800 to 2500.

Shooting without FEEDBACK is just making NOISE. 1000 yd BR targets ARE 6 FEET SQUARE for a reason. If you cant spot your hits....you will NEVER improve, you will never figure out WHY you missed. I see a lot of targets set up in grass when there is a perfectly good bluff with no grass 400 yds behind the target.

And there is always a reason for a miss OR a hit. This is just math, there is no VOODOO involved, if you can't figure WHY a shot is hitting where it is......quit shooting until you figure it out.....one more time....ITS MATH.

We are very lucky today with the equipment and information available. When I started LR it wasn't this way, no lasers, no internet, chronographs were for the rich, cell phone apps? There were no cell phones and we didn't know what an APP was. A windmeter was 3 ft wide. A rangefinder was 6 ft long and took 10 minutes just to set up. Scopes? Wow. No reticles and maybe 50 MOA total. The Shepherd was the state of the art bad boy back then lol. Bullets....well do ya like the SMK or the SMK or the SMK?

Point is its easier than ever to play this game BUT if you cant MEASURE something you cant improve it. Find a place that you can shoot 1 mile BUT most importantly find a place you will SEE a MISS out to 100+ ft AROUND your target EVERY TIME. Or use a 100 ft wide and tall piece of paper.

With the advances available today, good loading techniques and some practice that provides GOOD FEEDBACK, anyone can shoot under 1 MOA at 1 mile. Some days the wind will make this hard but even in the wind its doable. Its not magic, there is no VOODOO involved its all MATH. If you can HOLD 1 MOA at 100yds. You can HOLD 1 MOA at 1 mile. Lot more variables in play at 1760 but everyone on this board CAN HOLD 1 MOA. The rest is some really complex math......that you have a cell phone to take care of.

Hope this helps someone. I see a lot of posts on LR but few have stressed GOOD FEEDBACK. If you cant tell WHERE you are hitting.....quit shooting, you are burning powder and your throat for no reason.

[hafejd30]

100 ft area around a target is great if you live in a desert. Many places by me (in Michigan) don't allow that kind of luxury. You find an area with a few feet of dirt etc on a road or what not for your target. The rest is grass or trees. If you need this 100 ft each time then your not catching onto this "math" quick enough. The few times I've shot the mile mark I've always put my first shot within a few feet of my POA. And we don't have stores that sell 100 ft pieces of paper around here.....

[toddcdozer]

100 ft area around a target is great if you live in a desert. Many places by me (in Michigan) don't allow that kind of luxury. You find an area with a few feet of dirt etc on a road or what not for your target. The rest is grass or trees. If you need this 100 ft each time then your not catching onto this "math" quick enough. The few times I've shot the mile mark I've always put my first shot within a few feet of my POA. And we don't have stores that sell 100 ft pieces of paper around here.....
If you ALWAYS put a shot within 24" of POA at 1 mile THE FEW TIMES you have done it.....you sir are a stud. You have it all figured out, are shooting an accurate rifle and can REALLY READ WIND. Kudos.
Maybe you would like to add to the thread HOW you accomplish this ALWAYS the FEW TIMES you have done it. You know, equipment list, RF, GUN, SCOPE, APP, WINDMETER, RESTS, BIPODS, CHRONO, LOADS etc.
I am very interested in the subject and the ease with which you have mastered it, ALWAYS the FEW TIMES you have done it.

[yobuck]

100 ft area around a target is great if you live in a desert. Many places by me (in Michigan) don't allow that kind of luxury. You find an area with a few feet of dirt etc on a road or what not for your target. The rest is grass or trees. If you need this 100 ft each time then your not catching onto this "math" quick enough. The few times I've shot the mile mark I've always put my first shot within a few feet of my POA. And we don't have stores that sell 100 ft pieces of paper around here.....

Haff, I can tell you this much about what we both just read. That is that he is far more right than he is wrong.
He is a bit over the top on some of what he claims and says. But he is also speaking the correct language, and theres where the problem lies here.
The language he is speaking about this topic is foreign to pretty much everybody here.
You are obviously a very capable young man. But you no doubt credit your success soley to you as a shooter, and so do others here.
First off you live within an easy days drive of an area where doing that is very easily done, and is done, and has been being done for many decades.
Were not talking about winning a rifle match here. Were talking about hitting a target at a very long distance. And most people seem to lack the knowledge to know the difference, and just how it can be easily accomplished.
Now I'm not talking about a mile, because that's simply not being realistic.
I have a petite 15 year old grand daughter who might weigh 85/90 lbs. She has no doubt fired less than 1000 rounds total from all guns since she started shooting.
This year she shot her 2nd long range buck at (about) 800 yds. She hit it on the 2nd shot and finished it on the next shot.
I was not present when it happened, but my 55 year old son, also her father was and he knew when he arrived there that he had forgotten his rangefinder.
When he spotted the buck laying down, he guessed the yardage which of coarse was wrong.
But, he watched the shot going over there and also saw the hit. And that's all he needed, and all she needed to make the kill.
He knew she hit it and where she hit it on her second shot.
You are not going to do that at least very well with that spotting scope you have regardless of how good it is and how much you paid for it.
And I'm very familiar with the very best of the very best of them.
A very large percentage of the deer we have killed in over 40 years of this were killed by young kids and others with just basic shooting skills, and no long range experience at all. But if you guys want to believe and disbelieve as you do, well that's just fine also.

[hafejd30]

I would consider 24" to be a couple feet. Couple usually refers to 2. In this case my "few" refers to about 3-5 ft.

I would also note I shot this distance during near perfect conditions. Little or no wind or mirage. And did not hit 100% of the shots. I've also shot many distances less than 1760 and learned my rifle and its ballistics very well.

Since you asked- Leica, Custom 260, Sightron SIII, Strelok, Kestrel, Rear Sandbags, Harris, 2835 fps (added suppressor since then), 142 SMK/Lapua Brass/H4350/CCI BR2.

I'm not trying to cut you down. You make some good suggestions for ELR shooting. Spotting/Seeing Bullet splash being a key to dialing in. But with a good consistent gun/load and a good ballistic app (or in my case real results from past shooting sessions (DOPE) it is not unrealistic to get better results. I've shot a decent amount around 1500 yards which in turn gave me a better idea of what performance I could expect at a mile.

[hafejd30]

Haff, I can tell you this much about what we both just read. That is that he is far more right than he is wrong.
He is a bit over the top on some of what he claims and says. But he is also speaking the correct language, and theres where the problem lies here.
The language he is speaking about this topic is foreign to pretty much everybody here.
You are obviously a very capable young man. But you no doubt credit your success soley to you as a shooter, and so do others here.
First off you live within an easy days drive of an area where doing that is very easily done, and is done, and has been being done for many decades.
Were not talking about winning a rifle match here. Were talking about hitting a target at a very long distance. And most people seem to lack the knowledge to know the difference, and just how it can be easily accomplished.
Now I'm not talking about a mile, because that's simply not being realistic.
I have a petite 15 year old grand daughter who might weigh 85/90 lbs. She has no doubt fired less than 1000 rounds total from all guns since she started shooting.
This year she shot her 2nd long range buck at (about) 800 yds. She hit it on the 2nd shot and finished it on the next shot.
I was not present when it happened, but my 55 year old son, also her father was and he knew when he arrived there that he had forgotten his rangefinder.
When he spotted the buck laying down, he guessed the yardage which of coarse was wrong.
But, he watched the shot going over there and also saw the hit. And that's all he needed, and all she needed to make the kill.
He knew she hit it and where she hit it on her second shot.
You are not going to do that at least very well with that spotting scope you have regardless of how good it is and how much you paid for it.
And I'm very familiar with the very best of the very best of them.
A very large percentage of the deer we have killed in over 40 years of this were killed by young kids and others with just basic shooting skills, and no long range experience at all. But if you guys want to believe and disbelieve as you do, well that's just fine also.

I'm certainly not in disbelief that others can't accomplish long range shooting. Especially with the LR components available today. Yes a monkey can pull a trigger. It's the patience and experience to learn how to do this that put a bullet in a target. I always use a spotter when I can. That setup your referring to with the spotting scope, I'm assuming from my post on the "top shot" thread, did allow me to shoot, move over to spotting scope and accurately see the hits/misses and adjust. I did not have a spotter the day I shot that target and had to make due.

[toddcdozer]

I would consider 24" to be a couple feet. Couple usually refers to 2. In this case my "few" refers to about 3-5 ft.

I would also note I shot this distance during near perfect conditions. Little or no wind or mirage. And did not hit 100% of the shots. I've also shot many distances less than 1760 and learned my rifle and its ballistics very well.

Since you asked- Leica, Custom 260, Sightron SIII, Strelok, Kestrel, Rear Sandbags, Harris, 2835 fps (added suppressor since then), 142 SMK/Lapua Brass/H4350/CCI BR2.

I'm not trying to cut you down. You make some good suggestions for ELR shooting. Spotting/Seeing Bullet splash being a key to dialing in. But with a good consistent gun/load and a good ballistic app (or in my case real results from past shooting sessions (DOPE) it is not unrealistic to get better results. I've shot a decent amount around 1500 yards which in turn gave me a better idea of what performance I could expect at a mile.Thanks for the reply and keeping it civil. A lot of what I put in the OP was because of things I have seen people posting on here. The reference to 100 ft was to illustrate that splash is SO VITAL to LEARNING at ELR. In most instances I can also get within "a few" ft as well, however when the wind is kicking 20 to 30+ it gets a lil rough. Point is, without FEEDBACK from an IMPACT, we will never learn. Part of the reason I posted this is that I have seen photos posted on here of LR targets that had an IDEAL splash spot 400 yds behind the target placement.
It seems simple but the largest issue at LR behind wind and ES is SPOTTING. Without great spotting capability, LEARNING ELR is practically impossible. If your scope is 3 MOA off after 80 MOA and it causes misses...how will we know without having an impact? If the wind call is 1 MOA off and our target is 1 MOA wide how will we learn? If our ES is causing 1 MOA variance how will we know? By shooting into an area that will ALWAYS provide feedback, or having a ludicrously sized target.
I 100% agree with you that this stuff isn't that hard and its what I wanted my post to convey. There are some on here that want to act like shooting 1 mile is MAGIC, that is 100% not me.
Thanks again for the reply, I am not here to be a know it all or tell everyone what a geeeeenius I am. In fact I'm kinda a dumbass according to my wife.
And great shooting man, connecting at 1 mile consistently even in a vacuum is top shelf work. Doing it in grass like you have with a small caliber is even more impressive.

[hafejd30]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the civil response as well. Believe me I have sent my fair share of rounds into parts unknown lol. The pic of my deer kill in my "top shot" thread was the result of about 5 days of shooting, 20 miles driving to and from target to get wind down pat and about 10 hours total laying in the dirt on 20 degree days. That's not to mention the practicing I did before setting up to hunt.

I really wish we had some terrain that was more favorable for this stuff. I had to use sheets of cardboard to see my misses because my bait pile had to be in front of a grassy background to get this distance. Shoot, drive, shoot, drive, shoot, drive lol.

My Wife Says the Same Thing!!!!!! A guy eats one paint chip.....lol

[hafejd30]

If I could add some things I've learned from experience:

1) If you plan to hunt in wind- practice in wind
2) If you shoot targets often by yourself- build a light recoiling rifle that allows you to see your own hits/misses. For my heavier recoil rifles I built a device that holds my iPhone behind my spotting scope allowing my to record the shot and play it back.
3) For beginners- Don't buy/build a rifle you can't afford to shoot or are afraid to shoot. People buy things like a 338 LM and don't realize the cost/recoil of these rifles. As the OP stated, you will need to confirm and tune your ballistic app in with your rifle which requires shooting. If you don't reload then your shooting $5 bills. The cool factor wears off quick. Same for the recoil- you can't be scared to practice due to the kick

[toddcdozer]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the civil response as well. Believe me I have sent my fair share of rounds into parts unknown lol. The pic of my deer kill in my "top shot" thread was the result of about 5 days of shooting, 20 miles driving to and from target to get wind down pat and about 10 hours total laying in the dirt on 20 degree days. That's not to mention the practicing I did before setting up to hunt.

I really wish we had some terrain that was more favorable for this stuff. I had to use sheets of cardboard to see my misses because my bait pile had to be in front of a grassy background to get this distance. Shoot, drive, shoot, drive, shoot, drive lol.

My Wife Says the Same Thing!!!!!! A guy eats one paint chip.....lol
For a guy in the east a pond under you in elevation is the easiest thing to spot with for practicing. Your dirt isn't dusty enough to splash well. I cant even comprehend learning to be good at LR without dry ground. You eastern guys have to fight it. I have started shooting over here in the east now and our range guy built some berms behind the steel to spot on. It has really helped a lot of guys....me included lol.

Ohh and BTW anyone who can hit a 30MOA or smaller point at 1 mile with a Harris Bipod is a better man than I. I carry a table and front rest everywhere for a reason.

[hafejd30]

All the ponds here are surrounded by tall grass and trees. I can't think of any I can see from a hill lol well I can think of one but the owners house is next to it

[toddcdozer]

If I could add some things I've learned from experience:

1) If you plan to hunt in wind- practice in wind
2) If you shoot targets often by yourself- build a light recoiling rifle that allows you to see your own hits/misses. For my heavier recoil rifles I built a device that holds my iPhone behind my spotting scope allowing my to record the shot and play it back.
3) For beginners- Don't buy/build a rifle you can't afford to shoot or are afraid to shoot. People buy things like a 338 LM and don't realize the cost/recoil of these rifles. As the OP stated, you will need to confirm and tune your ballistic app in with your rifle which requires shooting. If you don't reload then your shooting $5 bills. The cool factor wears off quick. Same for the recoil- you can't be scared to practice due to the kickGreat advice!
The place I hunt is in a wind generator field. It is the windiest place in the USA per SUZLON who would probably know. If you cant hit in the wind........ya cant hunt here. I have commonly had to hold more than 20 ft of wind with a 338 300gr SMK going over 2850. Don't fear the wind, just learn to live in it.
Great idea on the spotter. Is the resolution enough to see trace? Hits? I'm kinda tech stupid, this would be great help for solo shooting. They make adapters for phones, is that one of these?
Thanks for the reply.

[hafejd30]

The long shots- over 1000 you can't see trace. But you will see splash. I keep it zoomed in enough to see but not so much that it distorts. The hits on white painted steel are very easy to spot on the video.

Ya an adapter for my iPhone. Somewhat universal. Got it from cabelas. I built an aluminum arm to hold it behind the spotting scope. What it comes with is a step below just wrapping it on with duct tape.

The phone is an iPhone 5 and I mount it still in its Otter Box Armor case

[hafejd30]

http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p695/hafejd30/image_zpsx4qev1al.jpeg (http://s1346.photobucket.com/user/hafejd30/media/image_zpsx4qev1al.jpeg.html)

[toddcdozer]

Looks reasonably well set up. It would also be cool to video hunting shots. I have almost no digital pics of anything and most of my old school pics are who knows where. Always jealous of cool hunting vids.

[hafejd30]

I tried videoing hunts with this setup. Worked good to see hits and really handy if the deer runs out of the field as you just walk to the exact spot in the video. Problem is to see the hit the spotting scope had to be zoomed in a decent amount. With the deer constantly moving in the field it made it hard to stay on them. With a spotter it worked fine. Alone it didn't work very well. If you had a bait pile it pry work good.

But between trying to get a range, calculate ballistics, adjust scope, adjust spotting scope, turn on camera, get on gun and wait for a broadside shot before shooting, it just became to much. Not to mention the report from the muzzle blast (338 mainly) would displace so much air that the spotting scope would shake. To keep close enough to operate everything single handedly I would have to put my gear bag between the rifle and spotting scope.

But like I said, with a spotter it works pretty well

With the suppressor on the 260 it works excellent for targets. But I mainly use the 338 for hunting anything past 500

[eddiesindian]

http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p695/hafejd30/image_zpsx4qev1al.jpeg (http://s1346.photobucket.com/user/hafejd30/media/image_zpsx4qev1al.jpeg.html)

That ll work.

[LongRange]

Great advice!
The place I hunt is in a wind generator field. It is the windiest place in the USA per SUZLON who would probably know. If you cant hit in the wind........ya cant hunt here. I have commonly had to hold more than 20 ft of wind with a 338 300gr SMK going over 2850. .

really? 20 feet? so basically what your saying is you hunt in a 46+ MPH wind? heres some numbers i just threw into JBM ballistics just so everyone would have an idea of what it takes to blow a 300g SMK 20 feet off target at 1000yds being shot at 2850fps....if your shot was closer than 1000yds then the wind would have had to of been blowing even MORE than 46MPH....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170114/dab49210ef02535aabb33f290f293259.png

[yobuck]

Well ive had bullets blow 20' off, but it was over 1600 yds, and it was with a 200 gr bullet from a 30x378.
It would be one thing if it were a steady wind and you could adjust for it.
But otherwise you will never catch up with it at those distances, regardless of how good a shot you are.
Another thing that's very possible with wind at extreme distances, at least for hunters, is the very real possibility of the wrong animal falling over.
Shit happens they say, and especially when people are trying stupid stuff.
The spotter also needs to be the adult in the room, and determine when its time to pack it in.

[toddcdozer]

really? 20 feet? so basically what your saying is you hunt in a 46+ MPH wind? heres some numbers i just threw into JBM ballistics just so everyone would have an idea of what it takes to blow a 300g SMK 20 feet off target at 1000yds being shot at 2850fps....if your shot was closer than 1000yds then the wind would have had to of been blowing even MORE than 46MPH....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170114/dab49210ef02535aabb33f290f293259.pngI'm not nearly young enough to be tech savvy enough to put a ballistics table on here. However if you had run your numbers out to the 1500+ area you would see what I am talking about. Yes we do hunt in 30+ mph wind. If we don't then we probably lose 40% of the days we can hunt. Our average daily wind speed is about 26mph per Suzlon our wind charger company. Conditions like these are why we pretty muchly shoot a 338 at everything. Can you hit reliably in these conditions? Well if you miss a wind call by 3mph at 14mph or 3mph at 34 its still the same amount of wind you miss by. Gusts and lulls is what murders you not the actual MPH. A 12mph gusty wind is tougher than a steady 24mph.
Yes if you want to hunt or shoot in a wind generator field on top of a large upslope you will learn to shoot in winds over 20mph regularly and you will model your equipment to work in these conditions, or you will hunt 2-3 hrs a day and some days not at all.
I realize this may seem hard for many who live in places that don't have songs written about how windy they are, to BELIEVE, but the weather data is all over the net that even a goofball like me can access. In Oklahoma the wind always blows, in western Oklahoma it always blows hard, in wind generator fields in Western Oklahoma , it blows hard reliably every day.....or I don't get my wind generator checks.