What makes a rifle accurate?

[barrel-nut]

It is true that CONSISTENCY is the key to shooting an ACCURATE rifle well, but all the consistency in the world won't make an inaccurate rifle shoot well.



Foxx, you just summed up in one sentence what I have been struggling to convey with all of my rambling above. Well done sir.
ETA: it pained me, too, to disagree with Bill, and it was the first time for me too. Bill is one of the most-respected members here and I certainly mean no disrespect, just a slight disagreement.

[chukarmandoo]

All I'll say about this is- if a person has any doubts about the accuracy of his rifle and is himself doing something wrong, he will never over come his inability to be a marksman. No matter how much he works at it. But if it is proven to him that the rifle is a top performer, then he will learn to shoot and become proficient at it. That's why we used to think 1.5 MOA was good and 1 MOA was excellent! Today .5 MOA is good. .25 is excellent for the average shooter. The best for me is .3's and that will be the best I'll ever shoot and I think its me now and not the rifle.

[LongRange]

Oh boy... I thought this had died down. Lol
BillPa, first off I enjoyed your story, and I have friends like that too. But what your story illustrates, and where it differs from the ridiculous quote above it, is that you have a good shooter (you) being outshot by a better shooter (your friend) using THE SAME EQUIPMENT (your rifle in this case). And I'd bet my hat that you're talking about a matter of tenths of an inch at 100 yds, which admittedly can be a huge difference if you're talking .5 inch to, say, .2 inch. That is an example of an excellent shooter, taking a good rifle to the limits of the rifle's capability, which is something a good shooter can do using a GOOD rifle. Using good technique, slowing down his pulse, reading the wind, squeezing the secret chicken foot, whatever.. He will outshoot lesser shooters virtually every time using SIMILAR equipment.
But that's not what the quote in question says. It says to give him the WORST rifle, and he'll beat you using your BEST rifle. Bill, I believe that if you gave your friend a BAD rifle (as in WORST in the quote above), which to me is a 2-3 MOA rifle like a couple of the stinkers in my safe, and you reshoot that match with you using your best rifle, you would probably beat him 90% of the time. For him to beat you at all, using a known bad rifle, would by definition have to be just luck, because the equipment itself is not capable of such accuracy as is needed. There's nothing a good shooter can do to physically transform the "worst" rifle into the "best" rifle.
I do acknowledge that it's all a question of degrees of "best" or "worse", as in a good shooter using a .3 MOA rifle, will very likely beat an average shooter using a .2 MOA rifle, most of the time.
I'm sorry if I'm ruffling anybody's feathers here, or maybe making myself look like an arse. That's not my intent. I'm just bothered by some of the hyperbole that gets thrown around on the Internet so often that it eventually becomes accepted as gospel truth, without those reading it even closely examining it, and how dare anyone even question such a thing. I just felt the need to try, at least, to shoot down this particular canard because I think it's very misleading to new shooters such as the OP.

first let me say your not ruffling my feathers...but you are pushing this right to the limit with a word game.....i admit i did use the word "WORST"and it was not the best word to use. but will also say you know im not talking about a 3MOA riffle YOUR the one that brought that into this NOT me...personally if i had i 3moa riffle id toss everything but the action and start over. im not here to argue or play word games im here to learn and to try and help others so maybe we should both let this go or continue it it a new thread and stop posting our differences in his thread.

[barrel-nut]

Words are the medium we're dealing in here, no?
I'd agree with this statement:
A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

[LongRange]

Words are the medium we're dealing in here, no?
I'd agree with this statement:
A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

LMAO...yes and im done to.

[barrel-nut]

:-)
Hey icker, next time ask us something non-controversial, like Ford vs. Chevy? Or, Cowboys- really America's team?? Lol. Best of luck to you with your new rifle, and becoming a great shooter. Keep us informed on your progress.

[BillPa]

A good shooter will outshoot an average shooter 90% of the time, using similar rifles.
That's it, I'm done.

Similar riffles? Heck even the same old rusty club! The next time Tom ,my "Proof Shooter" , goes along I'm gonna give'm a viscous kick in the jewels. We'll see can out do who then!:p

[barrel-nut]

Lol. A handicap, if you will.

[eddiesindian]

Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.

i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.

As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.

in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.

Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.

roger that: Better stock with aluminum bedding block/piller is a must. Id do this before any future load development.
Looks like you dun figured it out.
Good Luck.

[icker96]

I guess the rifle and I both have potential. I measure these at .726 for an 8 shot group, and 1.138 for a 10 shot group. Please let me know if my technique for measuring groups is wrong.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/nite-mare/IMG_0939_zps1ea72cca.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/nite-mare/media/IMG_0939_zps1ea72cca.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/nite-mare/IMG_0938_zps21aa528b.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/nite-mare/media/IMG_0938_zps21aa528b.jpg.html)

[icker96]

p.s. 3 things I did:

1: I made sure my gun was sitting on the bag farther back so the stock was not flexing into the barrel
2. I am tall and long waisted and I when I shoot from a bench I usually have to hunch over. This time I put my front and rear bags on 2x4s. This raised the level and allowed me to sit a little straighter and more upright. I think ir really helped my technique
3. I unscrewed my recoil pad and put some tabs in to space it out a bit and increase my length of pull.

[LongRange]

Great to hear your getting things dialed in! Are these 100yds groups?

[icker96]

Yes, 100 yds. Sorry I forgot to mention distance

[olddav]

Yep, looks like you and the rifle have potential. How long between shots?

[icker96]

not much. I shot it as one 10 round string, so just the time to single load a bullet and get back on target.

[olddav]

I'm sure you know this but try taking a couple of minutes between shots, should tighten up the group.

[icker96]

yes, but I am trying to get involved in the modified F-class competitions at my range. It requires 30 shots in 30 minutes. I have to engage 6 targets with 5 shots each.

[sav250]

Sounds like a weird question, but I am new to rifle shooting and bought a Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter in 223 thinking I just wanted to have fun putting holes in paper and plinking. Turns out I have gotten into reloading, and have really enjoyed the shooting and the quest for the 1 hole groups. I am still playing with developing the right load and have managed sub MOA groups, but I am having a hard time getting under 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

Is it possible to get sub 1/2 MOA from a factory rifle? If I get a new barrel will it completely improve my accuracy? or does the accuracy come from the action itself? if it comes from the action, is a factory mass produced action machined well enough to be really accurate? I would hate to buy a new barrel and find out that the action is not machined well enough to be consistent, so I can never get the accuracy I want.

Ultimate question, can I make this rifle shoot the way I want, or do I need to start all over? If I can make it shoot the way I want, how? If I need to start all over, suggestions?

I never ran into a Savage rifle in bolt or lever that was not accurate. Savage uses button rifling in respected chrome-molly barrels and for some reason no one who knows about Savage barrels ever disses them.

So I say keep the 11 you already have an accurate cartridge with a bolt that is second to none.

THEN, if you have any accuracy issues I'd look in the mirror and make a wish either for the bald faced truth or the fairest fantasy of all.

I am being facetious:)

I am being truthful.

[LongRange]

yes, but I am trying to get involved in the modified F-class competitions at my range. It requires 30 shots in 30 minutes. I have to engage 6 targets with 5 shots each.

interesting...are the targets all the same distance or do they vary? also what is the longest distance you shoot at these matches?

[JCalhoun]

Icker

I measure groups outside to outside (the farthest points) and subtract the bullet diameter.

As for your project, it looks like you are on the right track accuracy wise. Does your rifle have a heavy or sporter contour barrel? Thin barrel can be quite accurate but heat up quickly and hot barrel tend to throw bullets more.

Since you already know the stock is flimsy I'd replace it with a composite or laminated wood. Bedding the action to the new stock will possibly help but never hurt.

The next big change I would do is get a quality target scope. I have a couple of Leupold VX2 6-18X 40mm AO Targets that I love. Great scopes for the money. You could like something else but I suggest something with good clarity and eye relief.

If 100y is all you will shoot then the BR target bullets would be something to try. These are the flat base bullets. Berger comes to mind but I'm sure there are others.

But to answer your original question, I think what makes a rifle accurate is a good barrel in a good stock with a good trigger and good sights (or scope).

BTW, I'm tall also and I hate shooting from the shorty benches. A really good rifle shooter at our club has one of those adjustable drummer's stools he carries so he can raise or lower his body position rather than build up the rest. I keep a few short 2X8's in the truck and use that under the rest if I can't get a human sized bench. It helps some but not as good as real bench.