What makes a rifle accurate?

[Arky 223]

With any rifle the six points of accuracy are, ammo, ammo, ammo, trigger, glass, operator.

[LongRange]

No, I did not suggest he go out and buy the best of everything. I gave general answers to a question of what makes a Savage rifle an accurate rifle. It is perfectly appropriate to encourage a new shooter to learn proper technique and discipline, but we don't need to be arrogant and snippy about it. His was a perfectly appropriate and legitimate question. Answer it without trying to belittle him.

first off im not being snippy arrogant or belittling anyone just giving a straight answer to a question,and pointing out the fact that he is new and should eliminate all or most shooter error before up grading because whats the point of adding a new barrel if you have shooter error? it will not make the riffle shoot any better if he has not worked on his technique.


1. Barrel
2. Bullets
3. Bedding

All else is just the interface between the shooter and rifle, as d.id already covered. Trigger, stock, optics, action, all are but means for the shooter to steer the barrel, and ultimately, the bullet. But the barrel and the bullet are where it's at. If these two items are not compatible, and of good quality, then nothing else is gonna really matter. A factory barrel can be very good, but many are not. Generally, aftermarket barrels are of better quality. Good bedding allows repeatability with the whole system.
I disagree with all the emphasis on the shooter. The question was "what makes a rifle accurate?", not "how do I shoot a rifle accurately?". Any rifle is only capable of a certain degree of accuracy with a given load, and there's nothing any shooter in the world can do to magically improve on that, without making changes to the rifle.( ETA, or the load.) Either a given rifle will shoot MOA, or 1/2moa, or 2 or 3 MOA etc. Once you reach the limits of the equipment, the shooter can do nothing to improve on that. It can certainly be shot worse at that point, but not any better. I disagree with the comment about putting the best shooter behind the worst rifle and he will outshoot an average shooter with the best rifle. This is nonsense. I consider myself an average shooter. Give me a rifle capable of 1/4 MOA and give Tony Boyer an old beater that can't break 3 MOA, and I'll smoke him every time. Not to say that technique is unimportant, or that shooting is not a skill that can be highly refined; that, too, would be nonsense. But all equipment has limitations, and no matter how great our skills, or how inflated our egos, we cannot ignore that fact. Shooting a good rifle accurately is really not that difficult. I'm not talking about extreme, competition-level accuracy, but the 1/2 MOA that the OP desires. Case in point: a few years ago I was at the range, shooting my stock-except-for-the-stock, model 10 FP. I noticed a young man, maybe 15 yrs old, watching me from a short distance away. He seemed very interested. I asked if he would like to shoot, and he enthusiastically said yes. After securing permission from his parent, who was busily making noise over on the pistol range, I sat down with this kid to determine his level of experience. Turns out he had never fired a centerfire rifle before. No problem. I gave him a brief talk about safety and rifle shooting basics, and he fired a .308 for the first time, at 100 yds. About twenty minutes later, after having all of about twenty rounds' worth of "experience", he was breaking clay pigeons placed on the 600 yd. backstop, probably two of every three attempts. That's roughly 2/3 MOA at 600 yds, 2/3 of the time. That wouldn't have happened with a rifle that shoots a 12" group at 600 yds. And I seriously doubt, that any shooter could take that particular rifle that he was using, and do much better than 1/2 MOA with it. Maybe .4 MOA. Yes, the shooter matters, but the inherent accuracy of the rifle itself is paramount, and improvements due to technique are incremental, assuming a basic level of competency.
So to the OP, if you are shooting a Trophy Hunter at sub-MOA, but desire sub-1/2 MOA, I'd say you are already probably pretty close to the limits of the rifle, but there still may be room for improvement. Will your rifle ever shoot "one-hole groups" as-is? Probably not. 1/2"? Very possible. But if you want much better than that, you will probably be looking at improvements to the rifle. That being said, there's certainly nothing wrong with practice, especially carefully thought-out practice.

i agree with a lot of what you say and disagree with a lot as well...first off there are not a whole lot of factory riffles that wont shoot 1/4 to 1/2 moa so we are not talking about 3moa riffles.The question was "what makes a rifle accurate?", not "how do I shoot a rifle accurately?" your right but i dont care what riflle you put a shooter behind if he has bad habbits it WILL NOT be accurate!! all im saying is a new shooter needs to eliminate shooter error or all the up grades will make no difference in his shooting.
i know several guys with high end customs that cant shoot them because they never worked on their technique they just assume that a custom riffle will make them a better shot.

[barrel-nut]

Barrel-nut I agree with you up to a point.Shooter technigue does count, proper form is essential.
My first build was a total factory build, mod. 12 action VLP factory barrel, Mako shark stock, with the precision lug. No bedding but it does have pillars factory installed. Head spaced right at 0.002 and always shot with 60 gr. Sierra varmiters set right at 2.221 ALWAYS, and it is boring to shoot. Very seldom over 1/4" at 100 5 shot. Of course my bench set up cost almost as much as the rifle, and the benches are concrete and dead nuts level. Scope is a Mueller 6-25 mounted with Leupold bases and rings and the accu-trigger is set right at 1.5 lbs.. Put a different shooter behind it and the groups will open up(already have done it).
Now on to the OP's question, one thing I did not see mentioned is the fact you have a mod 11 which has a sporter barrel so while shooting shoot 2-3 shots and let cool then try 2 more. You state you reload so here is where the fun begins, you need to find the bullet, powder , length the gun likes period nothing else will matter as far as the rifle matters. Shoot off a good steady rest with a rear bag and learn breath and trigger control and I believe your rifle is capable of doing what you seek to do, maybe not every time but it should do it.
I would give you my load but all rifles are different and what works in mine probably won't work in yours.Don't through your money away until you get yours as good as you can, then have fun changing things one at a time.

P.S. I also have a 20"( bull barrel) law enforcement model that will shoot in the .3's with almost an identical load.

Rjt, please don't misunderstand my position. I never meant to imply that shooter technique and proper form didn't matter. They certainly do. But what I was trying to imply, is that the OP may be very close to being limited by the capabilities of his rifle, not so much his own. Of course, no one knows that but him, and it's up to him to determine that. But the reality is, that a Trophy Hunter, sporter barrel rifle is much more likely to be a 3/4 MOA+ than a sub-1/2 MOA rifle. That seems to be what he's after. Again, he's the only one who will ultimately learn what the limits of his particular rifle, and abilities, are. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of using a good quality rest and bags, breath and trigger control, etc. But I guess the crux of what I'm trying to get across, is that if a new shooter desires to shoot groups under 1/2" consistently, which is certainly achievable for the vast majority of shooters with proper technique and practice, load, etc., that that goal is much easier to achieve if you're starting with a rifle that will almost certainly do so, than if you're starting with a rifle that may only marginally get close to that goal under ideal conditions. In a nutshell, it's much much easier to learn to shoot sub-half MOA with a true sub half-MOA rifle, than with one that may only occasionally achieve that goal. To the OP, I'm saying all this certainly not to discourage you in any way, but only to try to keep you from getting frustrated if, and only IF, you can't reach your stated goal with the equipment you have. At that point, if you're sure you've been doing everything else correctly, and exhausted all reasonable load development, then and only then it may be time to consider upgrades. The first thing I personally would spend money on in that case is a high quality barrel (which will probably also necessitate a new stock). These two upgrades in my opinion are the best place to start once the decision to upgrade has been made.

[icker96]

Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.

i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.

As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.

in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.

Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.

[wbm]

All else being equal. Barrels. Barrels are Buddhists and they thrive on good harmonics, good vibrations and balance. The best stock, trigger, receiver and shooter become moot if the barrel ain't up to it.

[foxx]

My apologies to Long Range. I was too quick to get my dander up. Every post here is well-intended. I see that, now.

[olddav]

Icker96
It appears through your post you have a pretty good grip on whats going on with your rifle and what it is. Seeing that your shooting 68GR HPBT I again assume that your barrel is at least a 1:9 twist. The only advice I can offer is to try flat base bullets if you are shooting 100 yards. My limited experience has shown me that boat tail bullets do not shoot well at 100 yards although I'm sure some would disagree. Oh yea, swapping stocks is a good idea and you might as well pillar bed it while your at it.

[jonbearman]

Have a known really good shooter shoot your rifle after you and see if the results vary. If they do then it is you however if you get the same result from both of you start to look at the bedding first and flex of it. If I were changing anything right off with the crummy Tupperware stocks, that would go first. Then a new stock must be fitted and bedded with the barrel channel opened up to free float the barrel. Then I would seriously put good glass on it because the cheapo's will make you look like a bad shooter. The new savage's have accu-trigger's so I would hesitate dumping that quite yet. I would buy a good front rest and the standard is a Hart cast Iron based type with a fixed top for now. Then call protector and see which rear bag to use and have it filled by them with heavy sand. When shooting off a rest unscrew the sling studs while shooting off the bench. If the gun sticks and jumps in the rest, use stock tape which will let your gun recoil instead of jumping. Use decent ammo and stay away form Russian junk. Spend time set up in your living room with good snap caps and practice trigger control. Have someone video you while shooting as it will expose your weaknesses so you can adjust your style accordingly. Above all stay safe, no cleaning rods left in the bore etc.

[barrel-nut]

Icker, sounds like you have a good handle on what's going on and what to do about it.
Lots of good solid advice in the last several posts too. Good luck

[icker96]

olddav - that is not the first time I have heard this about boat tail bullets. Who makes a flat tail bullet in 68-70 grain? I assume I should not go much heavier with a 1:9 twist. I have tried Nosler and Hornady, and both are BT, and the SMK are BT.

[foxx]

olddav - that is not the first time I have heard this about boat tail bullets. Who makes a flat tail bullet in 68-70 grain? I assume I should not go much heavier with a 1:9 twist. I have tried Nosler and Hornady, and both are BT, and the SMK are BT.

No one. It's counter-productive. You can find 50-55 grain flat base bullets, (they are superior for 100 yards) but not 68-70. 68-70 is for long range, they would not bother making them flat based. TO test your rifle at short range (out to 200) use 50, 53 or 55 gr flat base bullets. They are cheaper (less materials and easier to make) and inherently more accurate at that range. (they also create slightly less recoil, as if it matters in .223)

[LongRange]

My apologies to Long Range. I was too quick to get my dander up. Every post here is well-intended. I see that, now.

no apologies needed foxx we all cant agree on everything and trying to debate through text or typing its very easy to take a post wrong ive done the same but we are all here for the same reason...to learn and to try to help others.

[olddav]

I think you've got me there, I looked around a short while and could not find any flat base bullets in the weight you spoke of. I guess the only option now is to shoot at 200+ yards. Guess I should of thought of that before I spoke up!
I think the heaviest flat base bullet I found was 63 grain (Sierra #1370).

[Nandy]

Icker96, if you are shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yds with a 223 and also reloading I think you are in the right track. It would seem to me that you have some good basics to accomplish that shooting. Im sure with better equipment you can do better. The way I see it, I want a rifle/load that can shoot better than I am so I am confident that whatever if happening downrange is due to my shooting and not my equipment. The questioning of if that "flier"that open up the group was due to equipment or ones shooting skill could drive some shooters (me, me, me!!!) crazy.

[LongRange]

Given - I need to practice and work on becoming a better shooter. I accept that and look forward to doing that. But there are times when I feel VERY confident that I just pulled off 2 good, solid shots and they are farther apart than I feel they should be. Could I be doing something that I don't realize, of course, but I get better groups shooting my buddy's E. A. Brown higher quality rifle than I do shooting mine. That tells me there is room for improvement on the rifle itself.

i have a load I like with XBR 8208 and Hornady 68 gr bthp. I am still working on seating depth and fine-tuning that load. I am also working on developing a load with RamTac and the Hornady 68 gr bthp.

As as far as the rifle, I did not want to sink money into a lost cause, which was the reason for this post. From what I understand, I can make this rifle shoot better, independent of my skill level, with some upgrades. After reading this, I went and played with my rifle, and it takes VERY LITTLE effort to push the stock into the barrel, so I would bet that happens a lot when I put the gun on the bags. Seems this would completely defeat the purpose of having a free floated barrel. I think I will start with a new stock, and soon will get it pillared and bedded. After I see what that does, I will go from there.

in the meantime, I will continue to work on technique and loads, which both seem to be never ending quests for improvement, which is a big part of why this is so fun.

Thanks all for the great advice, your thoughts, and please continue the debates. No one has all the right answers, and sharing knowledge, whether you are giving or receiving, is also part of the fun. Pretty sure you can read through most of the replies on this post and find something to make you think a little bit, whether you agree with it or not, and that is a good thing.

if you are confident in your technique then as someone said have a good shooter shoot your riffle...or better yet have a good shooter watch YOU shoot your riffle. if he sees no problems or only minor problems then id say start up grading you riffle.

[barrel-nut]

I'd give these a shot. Should work well for 100-200.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/739207/berger-target-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-55-grain-hollow-point-flat-base-box-of-100#reviewHead

[olddav]

I don't know if they are any good or not but Speer #1053 is a 70GR sp flat base bullet.

[BillPa]

The shooter is 90%....you can put the best shooter behind the worst riffle and he will out shoot an average shooter behind the best rifle


I'm living proof of that statement. If I really want to see how accurate my rifles really are I have a long time friend shoot them, he'll out shoot me with my own rifles ten days to Sunday 99.9% of the time. The man has ice water (Coors Lite?) running through his veins.


I asked Bob Pease (RIP) one time what the secrete to accuracy is. "Consistency. It doesn't matter if you do it wrong, just do it wrong the same way every time" :p

Bill

[barrel-nut]

Oh boy... I thought this had died down. Lol
BillPa, first off I enjoyed your story, and I have friends like that too. But what your story illustrates, and where it differs from the ridiculous quote above it, is that you have a good shooter (you) being outshot by a better shooter (your friend) using THE SAME EQUIPMENT (your rifle in this case). And I'd bet my hat that you're talking about a matter of tenths of an inch at 100 yds, which admittedly can be a huge difference if you're talking .5 inch to, say, .2 inch. That is an example of an excellent shooter, taking a good rifle to the limits of the rifle's capability, which is something a good shooter can do using a GOOD rifle. Using good technique, slowing down his pulse, reading the wind, squeezing the secret chicken foot, whatever.. He will outshoot lesser shooters virtually every time using SIMILAR equipment.
But that's not what the quote in question says. It says to give him the WORST rifle, and he'll beat you using your BEST rifle. Bill, I believe that if you gave your friend a BAD rifle (as in WORST in the quote above), which to me is a 2-3 MOA rifle like a couple of the stinkers in my safe, and you reshoot that match with you using your best rifle, you would probably beat him 90% of the time. For him to beat you at all, using a known bad rifle, would by definition have to be just luck, because the equipment itself is not capable of such accuracy as is needed. There's nothing a good shooter can do to physically transform the "worst" rifle into the "best" rifle.
I do acknowledge that it's all a question of degrees of "best" or "worse", as in a good shooter using a .3 MOA rifle, will very likely beat an average shooter using a .2 MOA rifle, most of the time.
I'm sorry if I'm ruffling anybody's feathers here, or maybe making myself look like an arse. That's not my intent. I'm just bothered by some of the hyperbole that gets thrown around on the Internet so often that it eventually becomes accepted as gospel truth, without those reading it even closely examining it, and how dare anyone even question such a thing. I just felt the need to try, at least, to shoot down this particular canard because I think it's very misleading to new shooters such as the OP.

[foxx]

LOL
Yep, I am still with barrel-nut, and for the first time I disagree with BillPA. :)

It is true that CONSISTENCY is the key to shooting an ACCURATE rifle well, but all the consistency in the world won't make an inaccurate rifle shoot well.

I remember when I first started shooting and was loaned a Springfield rifle-musket for a fun competition. I asked the owner how well it shot, he said, "Better than you." Well, I got his point right away and that was good enough for me. Ever since then, that answer is still good enough for me. If the gun's accuracy exceeds my skill level, I am happy with it. But if I am better than the rifle, I know it will only teach me bad habits and frustrate me while I try to learn how to shoot. (I will always be learning how to shoot, no matter how good I get.) Simple, common sense.

Still, somehow, I think everyone here agrees, it's just a matter of determining how good the rifle is to start with.