Bonded bullets

[JASmith]

"Further, test results suggest that the recommendations are effectively independent of caliber. A 100-grain .243 bullet behaves the same as 100-grain .264 bullet when both are of the same design. Similarly, a 150-grain .264 bullet behaves the same as a 150 grain .308 bullet."

This statemen discredits this article as well. Sectional density plays a significant part in terminal ballistics
Don't forget that the bullet completely changes shape within 1.5" to 3" of impact, making the remainder of the penetration the semi-ball to almost flat one sees with cup and core bullets at high velocity or the longer ball-like shape with premium bullets.

The laws of physics must be obeyed. The shape of the transformed bullet and its new frontal area define the sectional density and shape factor for about 90% of the penetration.

Hence, the out of muzzle sectional density and shape factor, combined with muzzle velocity, define the exterior ballistics, but the way the bullet comes apart defines the terminal ballistics on game.

[Luke45]

Don't forget that the bullet completely changes shape within 1.5" to 3" of impact, making the remainder of the penetration the semi-ball to almost flat one sees with cup and core bullets at high velocity or the longer ball-like shape with premium bullets.

The laws of physics must be obeyed. The shape of the transformed bullet and its new frontal area define the sectional density and shape factor for about 90% of the penetration.

Hence, the out of muzzle sectional density and shape factor, combined with muzzle velocity, define the exterior ballistics, but the way the bullet comes apart defines the terminal ballistics on game.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

Try to tell the 6.5 mm crowd that SD doesn't matter ;)

[Luke45]

The Barnes open as fast or faster than jacketed bullets. They are designed to open quickly. They just don't come apart. So you get rapid expansion and deep penetration. Which what a bullet is supposed to do. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/22/a6yqevur.jpg

They are accurate also.

Nice group!! All being said about expansion/ penetration, is that your shooting a 257 wby, which is probably in the top 1% of velocty for a deer rifle. So the bullet has a very high amount of energy wen it hits and can open rapidly due to it's large kinetic energy compared to it's wieght. In Essenes you have the best of both worlds, shock power and penetration due
To the high impact
Velocity as well as tough bullet construction.

[Bullitt 454]

If the bullet comes apart it loses it's weight. Then it cannot penetrate.

[Bullitt 454]

The Barnes also excel in the .224 bullets. I'm not a fan of using the .223 for deer hunting but if you do the Barnes is they way to go.

I started using Barnes with a 25-06 and a .243. Going from 120 gr to 100 gr and 100 to 80 really made those rifles much more effective. I had generally used Nosler Partitions but when I saw the benefit of the Barnes I switched. Another over looked option is the 130 gr in .308. You can get velocities of 3000-3100 using them.

[BillPa]

I'm a little amazed we were able to kill a deer or bear 40-50 years ago with the antiquated bullets we used back then. By today's standards they should have just bounced off the hide of a mangy 100 lb goat. :p

Bill

[Londerko]

Bullitt454,
I've used a .308 cal 125 Sierra prohunter quite extensively out of a 30-06 going 3100+ fps. It flat out drops blacktails in their tracks, even if you don't hit bone. So I see the benefit your talking about with the lighter bullets, it's always penetrated plenty deep on deer. But I wouldn't even consider using it for elk because of the light jacket, would you consider it with the Barnes 130?

[Bullitt 454]

I'm going to stick to what I know and I've not shot an elk. I would speculate that the heavier bullets would be better. But I would probably pick a 165 gr Barnes for an elk if I was using a .308 or 30-06.

Now I want to be clear if you hunt and shoot game at ranges past 600 yards then the Bergers may be a better choice. You are dealing with slower velocities out there and lower energy levels.
Time of flight keeps me from shooting at game that far.

[Bullitt 454]

BillPa forty years ago I was using Nosler partitions. For all the money I invest in deer hunting I'm not not about to scrimp a few dollars on bullets.
But there were a lot of deer that were lost back then too. People also didn't shoot much past 100 yards then either. Scopes were not as reliable.

[emtrescue6]

I'm going to stick to what I know and I've not shot an elk. I would speculate that the heavier bullets would be better. But I would probably pick a 165 gr Barnes for an elk if I was using a .308 or 30-06.

Now I want to be clear if you hunt and shoot game at ranges past 600 yards then the Bergers may be a better choice. You are dealing with slower velocities out there and lower energy levels.
Time of flight keeps me from shooting at game that far.

It was a complete failure of a Barnes (it completely failed to expand) on an elk from a 30-06 on a Montana Elk hunt several years ago that made up my mind. My brother and I haven't hunted with them sense....for Elk it will always be an AcuBond or Partition...both have produced 100% tag fill rates for me without failure on elk and moose (all but a couple have been 1 shot kills). Understanding bullet and metal dynamics are important, and Barnes weakness is that they really require velocity (and plenty of it) to be fully effective 100% of the time. Nether the Partition nor the AccuBond are nearly as velocity sensitive as the Barnes are and I for one, don't want to have to sit there on a hunt with my rangefinder and say, yeah, nope...gotta pass on that big a$$ bull because my Barnes may not be effective at that range....

[barrel-nut]

All bullets that are marketed as medium game hunting bullets will kill a whitetail with a hit in the boiler room at adequate velocity. The OP's position was that lightly constructed bullets kill quicker, and more efficiently due to the "explosive" effect these bullets have inside game. I think that in most instances (except in those instances involving a bullet failure), he's correct, due to the massive trauma caused by these bullets. The tremendous fragmentation can cause massive bleeding in all directions for quite a distance perpendicular to the bullet's path. This also transfers a lot of shock into the animal, which tends to anchor it long enough for the bleeding to cause death. More heavily constructed bonded or solid copper bullets, while doing an excellent job of staying together, penetrating, and avoiding fragmentation (as they're designed to do), by the nature of their construction, don't create as much havoc inside the animal, except right around the wound channel. This is also very deadly, just not quite as quickly or dramatically deadly as with bullets that "grenade" inside the animal. However, there will be a blood trail, and meat damage will be minimal with the "better" bullets. JMHO

[Luke45]

All bullets that are marketed as medium game hunting bullets will kill a whitetail with a hit in the boiler room at adequate velocity. The OP's position was that lightly constructed bullets kill quicker, and more efficiently due to the "explosive" effect these bullets have inside game. I think that in most instances (except in those instances involving a bullet failure), he's correct, due to the massive trauma caused by these bullets. The tremendous fragmentation can cause massive bleeding in all directions for quite a distance perpendicular to the bullet's path. This also transfers a lot of shock into the animal, which tends to anchor it long enough for the bleeding to cause death. More heavily constructed bonded or solid copper bullets, while doing an excellent job of staying together, penetrating, and avoiding fragmentation (as they're designed to do), by the nature of their construction, don't create as much havoc inside the animal, except right around the wound channel. This is also very deadly, just not quite as quickly or dramatically deadly as with bullets that "grenade" inside the animal. However, there will be a blood trail, and meat damage will be minimal with the "better" bullets. JMHO

You just stated in a much better way, the point I have been trying to make

[Bullitt 454]

The problem with the " grenade" bullets is they have to get inside to do the damage. If they blow up on the shoulder you have a wounded animal.

As for elk I don't hunt them. But if they are past 600 yards I'm going to pass anyway due to time of flight. But again we are not talking about elk on this thread.

[Londerko]

Really.... "Blow Up on the shoulder"...... Of a whitetail..... Must be some REALLY BIG whitetails where you live LOL :)

[barrel-nut]

The problem with the " grenade" bullets is they have to get inside to do the damage. If they blow up on the shoulder you have a wounded animal.

As for elk I don't hunt them. But if they are past 600 yards I'm going to pass anyway due to time of flight. But again we are not talking about elk on this thread.

I agree with everything you just stated. That's why I added "except in instances of bullet failure". It does happen. I've seen a buddy's 150 gr. .308 Ballistic Tip blow up on a neck shot on a small doe, knocking her down, and leaving the empty copper bullet cup on the ground, and her with a nasty neck wound. She got up and ran off, never to be found. For this reason and the ones I stated relating to meat damage, I'm not a huge fan of "grenading" bullets, nor neck shots for that matter. They either work spectacularly most of the time, or occasionally fail spectacularly. I'd rather have the more consistent performance of an Accubond, or a slightly more heavily built cup-and-core bullet like a Game King or Pro-Hunter.
Edit to add: I meant more heavily built than an SST or Ballistic Tip.

[barrel-nut]

You just stated in a much better way, the point I have been trying to make

Thanks Luke, and I do understand what you're saying, and even agree to a point, but I just don't trust bullets like SST's or Ballistic Tips, due to their occasionally quirky behavior, and the idea that i don't like my sausage flavored with lead. But you are absolutely correct that "premium" bullets are not necessary for deer hunting. They are, however, what some folks prefer to use, and that's all good.

How's that for riding the fence?? Lol.

[Londerko]

I'm a big fan of the gameking and prohunter, never used the SST. I've always thought of the nosler ballistic tip as more of a "coyote" type bullet.

[Luke45]

Thanks Luke, and I do understand what you're saying, and even agree to a point, but I just don't trust bullets like SST's or Ballistic Tips, due to their occasionally quirky behavior, and the idea that i don't like my sausage flavored with lead. But you are absolutely correct that "premium" bullets are not necessary for deer hunting. They are, however, what some folks prefer to use, and that's all good.

How's that for riding the fence?? Lol.

I definitly respect your choices and sound logic !

[daniel87]

Op that is your personal opinion.
But I call bull.
Like all things shot placement is king.
The bonded fed fuzion did tremendous damage to. Two white tail last season in .308 at 50 yards.

[Londerko]

At 50 yds it didn't matter, they wouldn't have been any less dead with bullets or ammo 1/4 of the price