Bonded bullets

[Luke45]

. Now how many of you use all-lead semi-wadcutters? : )

I use lead flat points in my sub sonic loads! Lager frontal area hits a lot harder than a copper jacketed pointy bullet that won't expand in those velocities

[emtrescue6]

So if I use a Sierra game king on a 150lb deer it's a shame? Would it be less shameful if I shot it with a swift A frame?

+1 A quality bullet that is accurate is far more important than an over-priced Barnes that's not accurate in your rifle....every rifle has a preferred diet. Like Bergers, a lot of rifles don't eat Barnes or Bergers well without a lot of tuning and sometimes not at all. My 308's dislike for Barnes bullets years ago is what soured me on them...whereas I have alway been able to get just about every rifle to eat every Nosler, Hornady and Speer bullet fed to them with little effort.

Some peoples kids....LOL

[yorketransport]

Wow you do shoot some oversized guns! That must be why I have never needed any of those rounds. All I have is 30-06, 270, 308, and 6.5CM. What are you shooting again?

I never really took a liking to small bore rounds for hunting; I'm partial to .30 caliber and larger. The current center fire caliber list:

6mm BR (Striker)
243 Win (Striker)
6.5 Badger (338 RUM Improved necked down to 6.5mm. This one is just getting completed this week)
7mm TCU (Contender)
284 Win (Striker)
30 Herret (Contender)
300 Savage
300 RUM (Striker)
338/375 Ruger (1 rifle and 1 Striker)
358 Winchester
375 Ruger
375 BME (375/404 Improved)
458 Arnold (essentially a 458 Lott from before the Lott was standardized)

Then the normal handgun stuff like 357, 44 mag, 454, 45 acp and 480 Ruger.

All use some form of premium bullet if the gun is used for hunting, as most of them are. The 6mm BR and the 284 Win are primarily target guns and shoot Bergers 80% of the time. When used for hunting they run Barnes TSX bullets. All of these calibers will kill quickly and humanely with minimal meat damage when a premium bullet is used. Stick a soft bullet in the bigger cases and you'll tear up a deer's shoulder pretty bad! A strong bonded or mono-metal bullet won't do that.

Andrew

[Luke45]

ok guys, many ways to skin a cat, ill agree to disagree

[thermaler]

I know hunters that swear by matchkings--they like the idea of an exploding bullet that dumps all it's energy turning vitals to jello.

[Londerko]

In my experience I don't think you need a bonded or heavy constructed bullet for deer size game. I do believe that they definately have a place with larger elk an moose sized animals, but that is not what this thread is about. They can advantageous with a "light for caliber bullet" that way you can maintain high velocities and good penetration. But I do agree with Luke about Lung shooting a 150lb deer with a bonded bullet, a small exit wound going out the other side of a deer means a pin hole was punched through the lungs and most of the energy went out the other side of the animal instead of being "dumped" in the vitals. The deer may run several hundred yards before dying, similar to a bow shot. With a Berger or other lightly constructed bullet, the same "lung" shot often drops them in their tracks due to shock of violent expansion on the vital organs
I don't have any experience with Barnes bullets, I do not live in one of the states where I have to use them.

[JASmith]

The principal advantage of the premium bullet is that it lets one work with slightly large game for the bullet weight or caliber than would be the case if the hunter were using bullets like CoreLolt, PowerPoint, Ballistic Tip. etc.

For example, a 100 grain all-copper hunting bullet creates a wound channel that has about the same size (area) as a 150 grain Ballistic Tip. This means a lot to the recoil-averse hunter or the hunter who chooses to use just one rifle for most of his or her hunting.

There is a discussion of what bullets go with which game and why the recommendations are what they are here: Ideal Bullet Weight (http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/)

[Luke45]

For example, a 100 grain all-copper hunting bullet creates a wound channel that has about the same size as a 150 grain Ballistic Tip.

I don't see how that's physically possible, the exact opposite sounds more correct. Unless te 100 gr was going way way faster, a softer more
Expansive bullet will create a
Larger diameter wound canal, can't change the laws of physics

Granet, the copper bullet will penetrate further

[Londerko]

Ya..... Not buying it. Their is no way an all copper 100gr bullet could have a bigger wound channel than a 150gr Sierra, nosler or hornady. Unless you are talking about penetration depth and not wound channel diameter

[Bullitt 454]

I have a lot of experience with Barnes and they open up as much as any bullet is supposed to. Bullets are not supposed to come apart. I had a Nosler ballistic tip hit a shoulder and come apart and did not break the shoulder. It only made a messy wound. A Barnes will break both shoulders.
I've shot lots of deer through the lungs with Barnes and although the exit hole through the opposite side was roughly an inch the ribs on the opposite side was bruised and broken in an 8 inch circle. I really think you do not understand exactly what a Barnes bullet is designed to do.

[Luke45]

I have a lot of experience with Barnes and they open up as much as any bullet is supposed to. Bullets are not supposed to come apart. I had a Nosler ballistic tip hit a shoulder and come apart and did not break the shoulder. It only made a messy wound.do.

Was it an elk or a moose ?

[Bullitt 454]

Deer. That's what we are talking about

[bflee]

Here in NC we no longer have any rifle restrictions on deer. That means you can shoot them with a 22lr if you want to, although I dont recommend it. Any decent centerfire will take a deer. If you want to shoot bonded bullets thats fine with me. I shoot 140 grain Amaxes in my 6.5CM all year. Target shooting and deer hunting. They work like a champ and hit right where I need them to because I practice with them all the time. They do the trick.

[Londerko]

Wow, that's pretty disheartening to have a hunting bullet not even break the shoulder. May I ask what caliber the gun was? I haven't used nosler ballistic tips much for hunting, mainly nosler partitions for elk, and Sierra gamekings and prohunters for deer. I have zero experience with Barnes and do not claim to know much about them. But my assumption is they are a deep penetrating elk type bullet comparable to a nosler partition. I have noticed on our small blacktails I primarily shoot here in oregon that the sierras definitely kill lung shot deer quicker than a nosler partition. But the partition is FAR superior for elk due to it's deep penetrating abilities

[yorketransport]

I don't see how that's physically possible, the exact opposite sounds more correct. Unless te 100 gr was going way way faster, a softer more
Expansive bullet will create a
Larger diameter wound canal, can't change the laws of physics

Granet, the copper bullet will penetrate further

The temporary wound cavity is larger. It's caused by greater hydraulic shock as a result of higher velocity. Assuming the 150 and 100gr bullets are fired from the same cartridge, the velocity of the 100gr bullet will be considerably higher. The higher velocity of the lighter bullet will cause greater "ripples" through the tissue. The permanent wound cavity will be similar.

You can't change the laws of physics, but in this scenario no laws are being manipulated. In the case of terminal ballistics the higher velocity will cause more damage when a projectile of similar diameter is fired at higher velocity. That's the concept behind the effectiveness of magnetically powered rail guns. That's what makes a high speed "magnum" kill faster and ruin more meat than a 45-70 with a 500 grain cast bullet. In order to get the best of both worlds you use a high quality premium bullet and drive it fast. It gives the same "shock" while helping to ensure deep penetration and bullet integrity.

Andrew

[JASmith]

I don't see how that's physically possible, the exact opposite sounds more correct. Unless te 100 gr was going way way faster, a softer more
Expansive bullet will create a
Larger diameter wound canal, can't change the laws of physics

Granet, the copper bullet will penetrate further

Ya..... Not buying it. Their is no way an all copper 100gr bullet could have a bigger wound channel than a 150gr Sierra, nosler or hornady. Unless you are talking about penetration depth and not wound channel diameter

Might help if one reads the referenced article. As it happens there is a lot of experimental evidence to show that the premium bullets perform better than classic bullets when the product of depth and diameter is considered.

The wisdom about how large that wound channel needs to be goes back to our Mesolithic (5,000 BC) ancestors and has continued through to today. Most of us didn't know that but a team of astute archeologists made the connections. The reference and discussion are in the Ideal Bullet Weight (http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/) paper.

[Luke45]

JA that article proves that you can use a lighter grain copper bullet
Compared to cup and core because they hold together better and penetrate further, that does not mean that there will be greater internal damage- your stuck on the fact that you can use lighter bullet in all capper. Have you gutted a deer after being shot with a light constructed bullet vs a all copper or partition or heavy bonded bullet? One has a nice 2 inch whole through the lungs and the other is completely liquified.

[Luke45]

"Further, test results suggest that the recommendations are effectively independent of caliber. A 100-grain .243 bullet behaves the same as 100-grain .264 bullet when both are of the same design. Similarly, a 150-grain .264 bullet behaves the same as a 150 grain .308 bullet."

This statemen discredits this article as well. Sectional density plays a significant part in terminal ballistics

[barrel-nut]

I know hunters that swear by matchkings--they like the idea of an exploding bullet that dumps all it's energy turning vitals to jello.

This is also the idea behind the Berger "hunting" VLD's.
I do agree that the "exploding" bullet kills quicker, provided it explodes in/near the vitals. The downside, to me, is the lead dust fragments that saturate the meat in all directions with some of these bullets. My last buck was killed with a 150 gr .308 dia. Hornady SST, MV of 2900 fps, shot through the shoulder. The cup mushroomed perfectly and lodged against the offside shoulder, no exit wound. The lead core disintegrated, with part of it veering up into the neck, breaking it. The rest of it shattered into minute particles and saturated both the on-side and off-side shoulder, ruining the meat in both. The vitals were all mush. Needless to say, the buck went down instantly. But I had to throw away both front quarters, and part of the tenderloin. And if it hadn't broken the neck, it may have run off far enough to be lost, as there was absolutely no external bleeding. I won't use that bullet again.

[Bullitt 454]

The Barnes open as fast or faster than jacketed bullets. They are designed to open quickly. They just don't come apart. So you get rapid expansion and deep penetration. Which what a bullet is supposed to do. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/22/a6yqevur.jpg

They are accurate also.