I think it’s a bit unrealistic WITHOUT very high cost machinery & tooling. Like several $100,000’s high cost.
I think it’s a bit unrealistic WITHOUT very high cost machinery & tooling. Like several $100,000’s high cost.
Dave, as an experienced machinist, please describe the machinery and process that requires a Smith to use $100,000 indicate and hold that kind of Run Out please.Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Here is a hint:
Change the chuck out for something that holds the work closer to the headstock. Get your adjustable tailstock on centerline with the udjustment screws and possibly shims. Buy the tooling, throw in a NOGA and < 20K you're the chit.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Yes… thank you Robin. I’m quite familiar. That’s a 504 “pocket” series gauge. Popular tool… With the “Jeweled” bearings, and “Carbide” contact points…(as if most gunsmiths had a clue what that meant!) They are high quality pieces, and sell typically for under $150. They also have, as it turns out, a .0002”+/- ACCURACY… So if the user does does everything PERFECT, and the “Jeweling” on dem bearings hasn’t worn none…, that is the absolute best it can possibly do...0002”. How convenient. Now a Mitutoyo 543 digital.. it has a .0001” accuracy, but it’s digital, and we hate those, right? Need to worry about batteries and such. Plus, it costs between $350-$400, and who wants to spend that for a test gauge?
Ill add this. If your tooling & part both have a .001 deflection & they are set counter to one another, what happens to that variation? Now, the incredibly expensive equipment used by large companies, have tooling that accounts for & can detect an error like that.
I’m not saying you can’t hit level of accuracy. Just that your post made it sound like that was your starting point for accuracy. When, in fact that is your end goal. That is the best which can be be accomplished, given perfect circumstances, with what you provided.
.0002 with a hammer tracked 3 jaw is pretty impressive. What is a NOGA please?Dave, as an experienced machinist, please describe the machinery and process that requires a Smith to use $100,000 indicate and hold that kind of Run Out please.
Here is a hint:
Change the chuck out for something that holds the work closer to the headstock. Get your adjustable tailstock on centerline with the udjustment screws and possibly shims. Buy the tooling, throw in a NOGA and < 20K you're the chit.
I think NOGA is the machine manufacturer... https://www.noga.com/
The machine is a 80's vintage 15" Clausing Colchester. A very worthy machine with broadly available parts. The picture was taken from the internet as was the indicator. It serves my purpose.
gbflyer, If you read the original text below the pictures in my post, you will see that I stated to change the work holding system. A 3 jaw chuck will rarely be able to grab anything that close and as you may well know you cannot indicate a 3 jaw unless you have a Buck or Buck style adjustable 3 or 6 jaw chuck. Some may use removable soft jaws and machine the holding surface while in the lathe to ensure a better grip or less RO. Three jaw chucks cant handle interrupted heavy cuts and other issues. They are good for their intended purpose and there are some tricks to improve RO but still not as good as an individually adjust jaw. If you want to get into conversations about what would be the best option to hold the barrel we can do that, off line is cool with me. Keep in mind that barrel chambering is not what I do as a proffession.
Noga is an indicator base that is used by many machinist. Most notably ones that do precision repair or low quantity precision work. It's method of holding, positioning and adjusting the indicator has been difficult to surpass. Here is the manufacturers web site, a little difficult to brows. Look for "Articulating Holders" on the web page or on....Google. https://www.noga.com, if you are a machinist you will see the advantages of a NOGA immediately. If you are a machinist you will already know the name like Brown and sharp, Starrett or even Mitutoyo. I use the NOGA's mostly with Test indicators but I do have two that I kept with linear travel indicators for HBMs or other mills.
One
Dave I really appreciate what you do to help some people on this forum. When you want to challenge someone with some outlandish information, make sure you are not selling wolf cookies. Have the goods, and not google goods. Not someone else's goods. Sell your stuff. I really did not want to go here but the issue is being pushed.
David, lets be real. You nor I are gunsmiths. You are not a machinist by profession and it is my bet that most of the machining you take ownership of is done by someone else. No shame in that, especially with your condition. Much machinig requires the use of 2 hands and arms. I think they are possibly your ideas but not your work. You are also a Google guy. Nothing wrong with that(Google Fu is important in today's world, but don't sell google info as your personal experience. My desire is not to bust your chops, I just think we should all stay in our lane. When we reach the limit of our knowledge we should listen to the person with experience. This is why you mostly shy away from many technical conversations if we are being honest. you realize your limitations most of the time and stay in that lane.
The particular indicator i posted a picture of was chosen because of its reach deeper to get into a small bore, there are better options, and I have spent some serious money on them to be able to perform the work that brings in stupid good pay. Plus you sounded like there was nothing out there for less than $50,000 that could hold close RO readings, so I pulled up a quick example. There are better much more expensive indicators you can use but Some of them are probably overkill. Inexperience led you to conclude that the tolerance specs of the indicator states it can't hold .0002' tolerance for low RO or TIR. The spec you cited is the tolerance durring the indicators maximum travel it can be guaranteed to be accurate to within that toleranceof +/- .0002" or a total of .0004" from one end of the rotational travel to the other end of rotation.
If the indicator dial does not move and is not bottomed out, it is not reading the .0004" you read in the specs. If there is with zero movement. It is in fact very close to "0". This is a completely different and a misrepresentation of reality to say that indicator can't show very close to an acceptable zero tenths TIR. Since we are discussing tenths of an inch, I would rather think I was zero and be off .0004" than think I was within .001 and be off and additional .001 and have .002 TIR. Thats just me.
I have had the opportunity to test the ability of a mechanical indicator for customers that required an electronic or even lazer TIR run out recordings for Q.A. This was for 60 or120 hz turbines and high speed gearboxes with shafts running from 3600, 7200 rpm and > 50,000 rpm. Very expensive high speed equipment. This has nothing to do with guns or rifle bores but it does qualify my opinion of indicators if you are willing to believe me and accept my claims.
For those that use an indicator everyday to make a living(42 years for me) in a precision machine shop(with high precision grinding machines), what I am stating is not that far fetched. For individuals that have want people to believe they are more that they are, for individuals constantly bragging at patting themselves on the back, often don't recognize that others may have skills at a level that tey can't even comprehend.
Dave, I try not to put information out there that misrepresents my knowledge. I am guilty of acting like an ass. I am also guilty of pretending I was an expert in things I only had partial knowledge of. I often miss the mark when trying to diagnose issues. As a empath, it bothers me when I give errant information. I don't know what it is like to be a sociopath.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Duplicate
Ya know.. just not worth it. I’ve never lied here. Show examples or it’s just you talking!
Ive never said I did any of this for a living. I’ve only ever said I was a Hobbyist! Please, show me where I said any different? Otherwise it’s just you talking.
:)I’m a Gunsmith, Knifemaker, & Machinist…with ONE arm! What’s your SUPERPOWER?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
:)I’m a Gunsmith, Knifemaker, & Machinist…with ONE arm! What’s your SUPERPOWER?
Implying that I am not knowledgeable enough to understand what I am talking about. You insult people all of the time and you act like a victim when you are called on it. We all have the ability to make ourselves look foolish.I think it’s a bit unrealistic WITHOUT very high cost machinery & tooling. Like several $100,000’s high cost.
I watched you challenge the information I offered the OP. Then you ignorantly tried to make my response look stupid by chasing down specs on the internet. I again spoke truth. Now your trying to put it on me. I only responded to help you identify that you are not the Gunsmith or Machinist you claim to be. I am going to call you out as a fraud. I will give you credit when you deserve it but if you are going to bust my chops David, I will use facts to educate you and set the story straight. BS is not traction, it is the opposite. I have no agenda except to keep a bully in his place.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
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