..Never used them. But the 90gr Nos BT's over H4350 work perfect for me..My state still allows lead..Plus I have a bunch...I tried the Sie. 85gr HPBT Gamekings in my Winny this year & was impressed with the exit hole through the rib cage.. Half dollar size hole in the hide..Easy to find blood trail & only went about 40yds..Next will be neck shot's for DRT's..