Thanks.Originally Posted by hamiltonkiler
The HS Precision stock has an aluminum bedding block.
I have enough of the 175 for the class, and was surprised they grouped as well at 100 yds as the 168s I had used at 600. If I'm not mistaken, as it gets colder and the air get more dense, my maximum range will decrease. I think it's going to be close even with the 175s with their better bc.
I'm looking forward to it, but trying to keep my expectations realistic for my equipment and ability.
While your at your class, and have the opportunity to shoot at the longer distances, let those results tell you the best bullet for your gun.
Not the BC number printed on the box.
Ask yourself this question, is the printed BC# the same for my 308 as it is for a 300 Win mag?
And is it also the same for a 300 Win mag as it is for a 300 ultra mag?
I think that's what I did - though not at long range. My best guess of which will work best, at long range, is based on the 100 yard group and its potential at extended range.
That's all I can test before the class. Really, I'm just excluding the one or ones that didn't do well.
I'm not just going by the bc listed on the box.
EDIT: This was the best target of the day with the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L (BC of .490). I think the vertical stringing is mostly operator error -
If you intend using the gun for long range anything, you are better off if you shoot/test your bullets and loads at a longer distance than 100 yds.
Initial shooting at 100 is ok and setting your scope up for a 100 yd zero is also.
But you might find some bullets performing better as the distance increases than they do at 100 yds, 400 yds would be a better distance to shoot.
As for the BC, it is never a fixed number as you find printed on a box.
Thats actually false advertising that they can get away with because it is possible to achieve that number provided the proper velocity has been reached.
Never mind average Joe buyer might not reach it with his cartridge.
You have to actually shoot your gun at the various distances in order to find out which bullet works best.
The 308 is a great cartridge, especially for someone learning to shoot long range due to the wide selection of bullets available in 30 caliber.
And it is also a very good cartridge to keep up practicing with after you become proficient and have guns using larger cartridges.
But it is also just what it is, a 308, and just like every other cartridge that means it will only perform (well) out to a certain distance.
With the right combination of scope and mount system you might (lob) bullets out to a mile or even more with it.
And if on the particular day you shoot the wind conditions are good you might actually do pretty well.
But count that up as a winning lottery ticket, because thats what it amounts to.
Realistically, with good conditions, you can expect your 308 to be a good performer at least on targets out to about 1000 yds.
Make up your mind that 1000 yds is a very long shot, much longer than the average long range shot on animals anywhere in this country while hunting.
But then there is real world, and there is also dream world, and thats where many of us choose to live.
The lighter bullets should reach a higher velocity, and the velocity will more than offset any potential BC difference to some point down range.
Again, you can increase or decrease the BC # of a bullet by changing the velocity.
Take advantage of the opportunity to try those 168s at 1000 yds compared to the 175s.
Its all fun, and its all practice, and it can also be enlightening
I agree, but 100 yards is all I have available for testing at this point. I'm not a member of the club where the class is being held.
I'm confused though. If a specific cartridge doesn't group well at 100 yards, how can it get better at 1000 yards? How can that be?
As far as 168s vs 175s at 1000 yards, based on ballistic charts, the 168s run out of gas and go subsonic long before the 175s. It looks like even the 175s will be right on the edge of going subsonic right about 1000 with the current conditions.
I'm firmly planted in reality, and as I've said, I don't think getting solid hits at 1000 is going to be easy with my set-up and skill level. Just getting started in long range shooting, and trying to be as prepared as possible for my first time out.
Thanks.
The speed of the bullet and maybe yaw makes the bullet hard to stabilize within 100yds the yaw stops somewhere down the line and stabilizes up making groups hold better or the same with some distance.
I see it in the 7mag, .270 cal a lot. Sometimes the 300wm.
Like the 175gn smk and 168gn smk from your 308. That 175gn might not look as good at 100yds but will hold better at 1000yds maybe. That’s a wind bucking issue more than yaw. But if the wind isn’t blowing I’m telling you from experience that 168gn smk will shoot better in a stock load at least to 600yds. In a savage 1-10. Now if you can load that 175smk up hot and stabilize it quick you miles may very.
You just have to shoot what you have on paper at distance to physically see.
Cheers
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Surprisingly, the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L actually produced the best 100yd group (3/4") I've shot with the rifle so far.
The best I got with the 168gr FGMM was just under 1". I've had a chance to shoot the 168s at 600 yards, and was pleased with their performance.
Hoping the Scenar's will do as well. The targets at the class will start at 600 yards, then 1000, and 1200.
Concentrating on improving my technique, but have a ways to go before I see the weakest link as the rifle or load.
In theory, can a 2 MOA group at 100 yards turn into a 1 MOA group at 1000 yards?
Thanks.
No. I’ve never seen it.
Like a 1.5” group at 100yds will stay MOA at 3-6 hundred yards.
Wind is your enemy long range. Or any range.
So I guess to answer your question no I have never seen one shrink that much.
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Hamiltonkiller is spot on with his above post.
You are at this point overthinking the situation.
Forget about small groups at 1000 yds, even the well experienced shooters dont always get good results at the long distances.
If you can shoot 1” groups at 100 yards consistantly, you will do fine at 1000 yards assuming the conditions are decent.
If your goal is small groups and bragging rights, you will be unhappy more often than happy.
Above all else, your class will be a learning experience for you.
If you have a decent spotting scope and a tripod for it that you can use by sitting on say a small stool or a 5 gallon bucket by all means take it with you.
Sit right behind and as close as you can, say 10’ behind other shooters and you can watch the bullet trails on way to the target.
That alone will be an enlightening experience for you.
Dont just concentrate on the trail, as you might miss the bullet impact if you do that.
Be sorta concentrating on the target area and the trail at the same time.
There will be a big difference between 6 or even 800 and 1000 in the trail of the bullet.
And thats where the bullet differences will visually show up.
I'm trying to get as much to make sense, and be as prepared as possible, before heading to the 1000-yard firing line. That was my point in starting this thread.
If you look at my previous comments, you will see I'm very realistic about my expectations - and not expecting small groups at 1000 yards by any means.
Thanks to those that have chimed-in with tips and info.
Just have a good time man. Nothing wrong with setting goals for yourself, but don’t stress over it. Ability will naturally come as you learn. And while getting info from others is a great learning tool, there are some things you simply need to do on your own. Many years ago I got my first real taste of actual long distance shooting. My wife & I moved to Arizona & I had friend & I would go varmint hunting with. There were times we’d just be taking shots across canyons/ravines. Would aim for rock across these ravines, maybe would be 1200, 1400yds distance. I remember starting out. Usually just see the vapor trail & nothing else. My friend spotting would say, “nah, you’re WAY short buddy!” “How far” I’d ask. “Maybe 50 feet..” WHAT!!? 50 FEET?? How could I be off 50ft? LOL! So, a little time, & learning and I started seeing dust puffs come off those rocks...hitting them pretty regularly. But the most important thing, it was fun from the first time I did it & every other time after.
Thanks Dave - it's all just for fun at this point. It's always enjoyable anytime I'm shooting.
I'm a competitive person, so I just naturally want to do well - especially shooting. As a competitive pistol shooter, many years ago now, I eventually made Master with my Bullseye guns and won some state championships with air and free pistol.
I plan to find some sort of rifle competition at some point, might be mid-range or competing with a M1 Garand I have set-up. Not ready to look for any true long range competition for quite a while.
Well Dave your buddy was obviously so busy watching the trail, he forgot about looking for the actual hit. lol
As a rule though those kind of helpfull guys will say the opposite, and claim you were way high, because thats where they lost the trail.
Frankly when were hunting i have on occasion outright ask the question, did you see the actual hit? meaning the bullet making impact?
If not then please shut up about what you only think you saw.
At the very long distances you will often only see the trail to about were the bullet starts its decent down.
At that point they are dropping like a rock toward the ground, and you can completely lose the trail.
And since thats where they lost it, they think thats where it hit.
And of coarse if its very windy, you might not see it at all.
Right on! Hey, nothing wrong with being competitive. I just never really was. Was good at most things, but I was always a better instructor in things especially like shooting.
M1 Gerand competition. That'll be fun!
As an update -
Attended the long range class this weekend. Weather was great - about 50F and sunny with light (most about 5 MPH) but changing winds. Wind flags were pointing in different directions from the firing line to the target most of the time. For this range, that's still better than usual- so were lucky.
We started at the 600 yard line. My Savage Model 10 FCP HS Precision with a 12x SWFA scope and factory loaded 175gr Lapua Scenar-Ls was right on with the ballistic charts I had prepared. 10 out of 10 shots were inside the 9 ring. About a 2 MOA group.
We then moved to the 1000 yard line. Making the corrections using the same chart, my first sighter shot was in the V-ring at 5-o'clock. Second sighter shot - not so much. Second shot went wide left into the white (6-ring) at 8 o'clock. I wasn't sure how it was going to be using a 12x scope at 1000, but it was fine.
Being inexperienced, and a little confused, I held center on my first shot for score - which landed at 11 o'clock in the 7-ring. I then held to the right edge of the target and fired another 7 at 1 o'clock.
I worked my way back to holding center, and the remaining shots were all in the upper right quarter of the target in the black, in a 8-shot group that measured just under 3 MOA. I should have dialed down and left a few clicks - but I was fine with just being in the black. 9 out of 10 scoring shots were in the black - which was just fine for my first time out. The group of 10 scored shots was right about 4 MOA when including the flyer at 7 o'clock in the white. I was still very pleased, and an experienced shooter could certainly have done better.
Seeing as how my windage was right-on at 600 yards, can the shift to the right at 1000 (with light but inconsistent winds from the right at 3 o'clock) be attributed to spin drift? EDIT: Based on what I've figured out, I should have moved .3 MILS left to compensate for spin drift to center my group. I'll know next time.
There were only a few of us in the class of 30 students shooting .308, and my results were honestly better than I expected for my set-up and skill level.
Thanks to all that gave advice to help me prepare. I had a great time and enjoyed the challenge of shooting 1000 yards, but my time is probably better spent at 600 yards or less for now.
EDIT: 1200 yards was available as well, but based on my data I would have been going subsonic about 1100. The electronic targets will not register if the rounds are subsonic. I partnered with my brother-in-law and his new Savage Axis Precision .308 with a 20" barrel, shooting Bullets 1st .308s loaded with 175gr SMKs. He was going subsonic before 1000, and none of his 1000 yd shots registered.
Good work.
From your firearm picture it doesn’t look like you have a level on your scope.
That is a very important piece of equipment for long range. A 1-2-3 or more degree tilt of the gun scope can throw shots all over the place.
Cheers and glad you had fun.
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Thanks.
You're right. The photo was taken before I put one on.
I do have one now, and made sure I was level every shot. I was shooting off of a large backpack I set-up as a front bag, which required me to check level for each shot. I would expect a bipod to need less attention for each shot, but the backpack has worked well so far.
The scope level is one thing I'm going to change though. It is sitting too high and a bit too close to see easily in-position. I'm looking into options that can get it lower and farther away so it's easier to see with my non-shooting eye when I'm sighting.
Fact is you could do it before you confirmed that fact.
What the class gave you in the end amounted to an opportunity to prove it to yourself.
And that in itself made it money well spent.
We could debate for a week over things like scope levels being necessary, but what is actually necessary is getting it done by whatever means.
Shooting at stationary targets of any type is a different subject than a live target.
Especially when your excitement rate is elevated, due to the nice buck youve been following in your scope is very close to being taken around a point and out of site by the hot doe he is following. Trust me, the last thing you will be thinking about is wether your scope is level.
So that means finding a better way than laying on the uneven ground using a bipod.
Things to ponder over, but good job on the class, and good job of reporting the results.
Thanks. I felt I had prepared to do well, and things went my way.
I personally needed to do some homework and have everything set-up as good as possible in order to be able to just concentrate on shooting. Some of the students arrived without having the rifle zero'd - which I think is pretty basic. The instructors were patient, and did help them get squared-away.
My luck held out for the weather. The next day was 45F, windy, and raining.
I also have to give credit to Savage - the rifle didn't disappoint.
45 degrees and windy sounds very familiar, especially in late Nov. early Dec.
But hey, one of those little gadgets you hold in your hand can fix all that stuff.
I still prefer having the wind on my back when i use mine however. lol
Congratulations on an accomplishment. After shooting only at 1-200yd for many years the differences when you go longer are surprising. Even a small amount of wind has a long time to act on the bullet.
5mph at 100yd is still something like 15in of bullet movement. And much of that movement is in the last half of the bullet flight as the bullet slows. So, yeah, it could have been just the difference in wind or a combination of wind and spin.
A 4MOA group at 1000yd is around 40".
Thanks.
The aiming mark on the 1000 yard target we were using was 4MOA.
My 10-shot group, including the flyer, was about equal in size to the aiming mark - so about 4 MOA.
Without the flyer it was under 3.
Plenty of room for improvement, but I was satisfied with that.
Just wanted to confirm. Yes, the standard NRA 1000yd target has a black center section that is 44" in dia. Based on that I would not try to read anything into why a group 'shifted' the way it did. Could have been wind, could have been you, could have been the ammo. Once you can get some smaller groups then start to look at the other factors.
Charlie, you didnt have to initiate a reality check on the guy this soon did you? lol
I have said here numerous times that if you can (consistently) shoot 1” groups at 100 yds, you are good to go out to about 1000 for hunting.
All things considered of coarse, and that can become the tricky part.
You can learn a lot about shooting distance with cartridges like a 308, without getting beat up with recoil and higher ammo cost.
But the fact remains that 1000 yds is about the tipping point reality wise for those type cartridges.
Unless of coarse your a keyboard shooter.
Pride in our own ability plays a larger roll than it really should in my opinion at least when it comes to any type of shooting.
Especially with long range shooting however, pride should take on a lesser roll.
And thats especially true when the target is a live animal.
We all tend to do our load testing and scope zeroing at a range from some type of a solid and level bench.
But now were going out to shoot at 1000 yds and just lay on the ground and shoot from some type of improvised rest?
When we think about ways to improve ourselves be thinking about that one first.
My flyers were all the other direction (left).
I'm trying to understand the reason for a change from a centered 600 yard group to an off-center (high and right) 1000 yard group.
I'm in no way saying my shooting was great (I think you'll agree), but the 9 rounds that were in a group were all inside a 2MOA x 2MOA square in the right upper 1/4 of the aiming mark - so I feel that does tell me something.
Based on what I know now, spin drift would have moved my shots in that direction, that amount, and correcting .3 MILs left and .3 MILs down would have centered my group. The effects of spin drift was not discussed, and I didn't think of it at the time.
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