Shooting 5.56 in 223 stevens?

[grouse]

I know the dimensions are different for these two rounds and can result in excess pressure. Can I safely shoot 5.56 ammo in my 223? Is it worth looking at a reaming to a 223 wylde?

[stumpjumper400]

I wouldn't do it. Any 5.56 ammo that I have ever shot was never more accurate than my reloaded 223 stuff. If it's not made for 5.56 then why shoot it.

[Eric in NC]

I know the dimensions are different for these two rounds and can result in excess pressure. Can I safely shoot 5.56 ammo in my 223? Is it worth looking at a reaming to a 223 wylde?

Been covered lots of times here - do a search

[grouse]

I know the dimensions are different for these two rounds and can result in excess pressure. Can I safely shoot 5.56 ammo in my 223? Is it worth looking at a reaming to a 223 wylde?

Been covered lots of times here - do a search

Tried that with no results. Search function is somewhat primitive.

Is it worth looking at a chambering in 223 wylde? I have a ton of 5.56 ammo laying around. That's the only reason I ask.

[jawjadawg]

I agree regarding the search function of the site. Sometimes you have to really work, and also make sure you are searching in the correct section of the forum. The search doesn't cross-index, and will only search in a downward direction - if that makes sense. You can search the entire site from the home page, but a search in the members classified will only return results from the members classified. I have since grown to like the search feature. Even though I might sometimes have to search in more than one place when I can't find my answer, the results I am seeking aren't typically buried among 100 unrelated threads as is often the case when you start searching from the very top of the forum. I would be the habit for most people is to start their search in the centerfire section, which might not return any results if your answer is in the ammunition section where it probably belongs.

There are some really informative threads on this topic to be found by searching google. I was just looking this topic up this weekend after shooting AR's with my niece's boyfriend. He is full-time in the National Guard, and insisted that there was zero difference between the two rounds. I couldn't remember the exact reason, but I told him it wasn't safe to shoot 5.56 in his 223 bolt rifle, but that the Colt and Bushmaster we were shooting would handle either just fine. We researched the topic after returning to the house just so that he could say he learned something from a civilian

I believe the answer has to do with the fact the throat of the 556 is longer, which results in greatly increased pressures in the chamber.

[farmerj]

5.56 can stick the bullet into the grooves resulting in excess pressure.

.223 has a higher pressure than the 5.56.

Can they do it, yeah.

If you are gonna do it, better off having the .223 wylde chamber.

[tomme boy]

Farmerj your statement is backwards.

5.56 is Higher PSI than .223 rem

They main differance is the throat length. 5.56 has a longer throat to help the peak Psi to settle before the bllet leaves the case. Same thing Weatherby's do.

[Captain Eddie]

1+ tommeboy. Longer 5.56 throat is also to accomodate longer bullet (62gr) now used. If the 5.56 ammo chambers with no resistance it should be safe in .223. I use military ammo in my 12BT with no pressure signs or problems.

[bigedp51]

grouse

Google is a wonderful tool and you can find any information you are looking for, the "PROBLEM" is where you get your information and "WHO" to believe.

The .223 Remington and military 5.56x45 NATO are the "SAME" chamber pressure "but" military NATO EPVAT testing is measured at a different point on the cartridge than the American SAAMI testing and that is why you see the differences in pressure readings. If you look at European CIP pressure testing the two cartridges are rated at the same pressures. (CIP is the European equivalent of the American SAAMI) Also if you look at the American SAAMI warning you do "NOT" see a chamber pressure warning, you see a warning on the different chambering methods dealing with the throat or leade for the military and civilian SAAMI.

[img width=461 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556natochamberversus223remingtonchamber02.jpg[/img]

The military throat or leade is longer for the heavier bullets like the 62 gr SS109/M855 and even heavier XM288, M855A1 class ammunition and this could "possibly" cause higher pressures in civilian chambers. The standard M193 55 gr ammunition would not be a problem in any commercial .223 Remington.

grouse, 95% of the answers you get in gun forums are going to be wrong on this subject and your best bet is to do your own research on this subject from "factual written documentation" and not misinformation and guesswork in forums.

Below is some food for thought, I have a Stevens 200 in .223 Remington and I'm shooting Hornady 68 gr BTHP match and 75 gr BT A-MAX bullets in my Stevens with its 1 in 9 twist. (home made civilian M855 & M855A1 ammunition.



The people who "might" have a problem shooting military ammunition are the .223 owners with 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist barrels with shorter throats or leade designed for the lighter civilian bullets.

What you also will find is the older M16 clones don't like the new heavier ammunition and were taking a pounding due to higher gas port pressures and this is the major reason for the .223/5.56 NATO warning.

If you have some surplus military ammunition just shoot a few rounds and read your primers and cases for pressure signs. Again the SAAMI is "NOT" posting a catastrophic firearm failure warning, they are posting "posible" pressure related problems with short throated rifles.

Now go out and do your own research on the subject like I did and don't believe anything said in forums no matter how many 5 gal buckets of .223/5.56 ammo I have.

[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6526.jpg[/img]

[tuit]

Am I missing something. I just bought a Stevens 200 model 17744 about 2 months ago, my barrel is marked 223 but is advertised as 223 / 5.56 NATO by Buds gun shop, The online gun shop, Guns America, Gun broker, Coyote hunting store, Firearms for you, Centerfire guns, So with all the advertising stating that this rifle will shoot 223 Remington/ 5.56 NATO. Do I really need to be concerned about firing 5.56? Since everybody advertising says it will.

[Eric in NC]

My experience (and mine only) is that you don't need to be concerned when shooting out of a strong bolt gun (especially Savage / Stevens as they tend to have a bit of a long throat in 223).

You will get high pressure signs and even problems out of NEF handi-rifles, match chambered 223 AR-15s, etc. etc.

[jawjadawg]

grouse

Google is a wonderful tool and you can find any information you are looking for, the "PROBLEM" is where you get your information and "WHO" to believe.

The .223 Remington and military 5.56x45 NATO are the "SAME" chamber pressure "but" military NATO EPVAT testing is measured at a different point on the cartridge than the American SAAMI testing and that is why you see the differences in pressure readings. If you look at European CIP pressure testing the two cartridges are rated at the same pressures. (CIP is the European equivalent of the American SAAMI) Also if you look at the American SAAMI warning you do "NOT" see a chamber pressure warning, you see a warning on the different chambering methods dealing with the throat or leade for the military and civilian SAAMI.

[img width=461 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556natochamberversus223remingtonchamber02.jpg[/img]

The military throat or leade is longer for the heavier bullets like the 62 gr SS109/M855 and even heavier XM288, M855A1 class ammunition and this could "possibly" cause higher pressures in civilian chambers. The standard M193 55 gr ammunition would not be a problem in any commercial .223 Remington.

grouse, 95% of the answers you get in gun forums are going to be wrong on this subject and your best bet is to do your own research on this subject from "factual written documentation" and not misinformation and guesswork in forums.

Below is some food for thought, I have a Stevens 200 in .223 Remington and I'm shooting Hornady 68 gr BTHP match and 75 gr BT A-MAX bullets in my Stevens with its 1 in 9 twist. (home made civilian M855 & M855A1 ammunition.



The people who "might" have a problem shooting military ammunition are the .223 owners with 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist barrels with shorter throats or leade designed for the lighter civilian bullets.

What you also will find is the older M16 clones don't like the new heavier ammunition and were taking a pounding due to higher gas port pressures and this is the major reason for the .223/5.56 NATO warning.

If you have some surplus military ammunition just shoot a few rounds and read your primers and cases for pressure signs. Again the SAAMI is "NOT" posting a catastrophic firearm failure warning, they are posting "posible" pressure related problems with short throated rifles.

Now go out and do your own research on the subject like I did and don't believe anything said in forums no matter how many 5 gal buckets of .223/5.56 ammo I have.

[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6526.jpg[/img]

Yes, do you own research...and disregard this post as you search. The problem has to do with the space in the chamber. As the throat was lengthened on 5.56 ammo, so was the size of the chamber to make room for the bullet. This is not the case on .223 firearms. If this were not true then the 223 wylde chamber would have never been developed. Weapons are tested with ammunition lots that producing a minimum corrected mean chamber pressure, as stated by each group - either SAAMI or NATO EPVAT. The 5.56 rifles have actually been manufactured and tested according to these specs, whereas sporting rifles have been manufactured to pass the SAAMI specs. The simple statement that all Savages are strong enough to withstand pressures they were neither manufactured nor tested to withstand is a bit foolhardy. Just take a look at all of the manufacturing defects coming out of the Savage factory, as well as other gun makers, such as Remington. The thread below about the weather warriors with messed up receivers is just one example.

We all know that no two guns are exactly alike. I am glad to hear someone has been firing 5.56 without fear or problems in their 223, but that doesn't mean the next person who reads this and does the same will not have a problem. Sporting gun makers manufacture their guns according to SAAMI specs, and in the case of the .223 REM chamber, those specifications do not come close to achieving the allowable pressure specs of the companies who manufacture 5.56 ammo. This is about the same as someone asking if they can shoot 2-3/4" shells in their antique 2-9/16" chambered shotgun. Will it be okay? Probably, but for how long? The first time? The 100th time? The 1000th time?

[bigedp51]

tuit

I'm with Eric in NC, if you Google the subject and weed through the garbage, myths and rumors you will find out several things.

1. In the U.S. we are changing from the much older "copper crusher" pressure measuring system to the newer electronic transducer method of measuring chamber pressure. This causes confusion because 50,000 cup is approximately 60,000 psi using the newer transducer method "BUT" both pressure readings are equal and the same exact pressure just as 60 mph equals 100 kph.

2. The Military NATO EPVAT pressure standards are different than commercial American SAAMI standards and the pressures are not taken at the same point on the cartridge during testing and the pressure readings are higher "BUT" still exactly the same in reality.

3. The only real difference is the throat or leade as pictured above in front of the bullet, as you can see below there are eight different chamber reamers for the .223/5.56.

[img width=583 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/223reamers-1.jpg[/img]

[tuit]

The Stevens Model 200 Short carries the spirit of fine workmanship and honest value. Featuring a dual pillar bedded, gray or camo synthetic stock, with button rifled free floating barrel, the Model 200 Short is the best value in a bolt action rifle. Any Stevens rifle you select will be found to possess those qualities of safety, reliability, accuracy and value, which have long been associated with the Stevens name.

Sorry- Not trying to hijack your post.
I have Googled it.
Maybe I did not word the question properly.
What I am asking is- online gun shops advertise the Stevens 223 as .223/5.56 NATO.
Is it only a .223 or is it .223/5.56

Below is from Buds Guns.

Specifications
Action Bolt
Caliber 223 Remington/5.56 Nato
Barrel Length 22"
Capacity 4 + 1
Trigger Single Stage
Safety Thumb
Length 41.75"
Weight 6.5 lbs
Stock Gray Synthetic
Finish Blue

[tuit]

Sorry- I thought I only copied the specs - not the whole page.
Using a iPhone and did not see it all.
Thanks: Hal

[tuit]

Thanks biged - interesting.
Will be more interesting as soon as I can get on the computer instead of this iPhone.

[bubbinator]

I have a Rem 700 HB Varmint rifle in .223 that has fired the GI 5.56 since 1973 w/o issues/ pressureprimer signs. Of course my reloads are more accurate, but as a Military Police Rifle/Pistol Team supervisor and later a State LEO, I got access to lots of 223/556 ammo. I also own a Mini14 Circca 1979, and a Kel-Tec SU16C, both of which handled 223/556 ammo w/o issue for years of LEO PAtrol Rifle qualifications. The best advise I can pass on about 223 ammo is never shoot Wolf! At the Ruger Armorer School on the Mini 14 we learned that the absolute biggest problem Ruger had in warrenty claims was chambers and bolt(firing pin holes) fouled by the lacquer melting off Russian steel cased ammo. It works fine in a AK with carpenter-grade tolerences (tape measure V micrometer LOL no slam on carpenters), but better quality US weapons gag on it after heavy use.

[GaCop]

Long story short........................for safety sake, use only 223 commercial in your bolt gun and all will be well in the universe.

[hailstone]

Call Savage customer support with specific product numbers asking them your question. Better from the manufacturer than the experts on the internet.

[GaCop]

I'm not an expert but did stay in a Holiday Inn..........................

[rjsixgun]

Just don't tell anyone on this forum and you'll be ok.

[Captain Finlander]

I shoot em in my guns with no additional pressure signs or problems. If the bolt closes naturally your all right.

[bubbinator]

GaCop you are too much- I did too and got to fly a helicopter ::), To be honest, all the 556 Mil I&#39;ve shot is < 1985 GI Ball. I retired from the service as a MP/Pistol Team leader w/a little spare ammo to practice with. From what I am reading in gun mags, on the forums, and such, the glitch is coming with the newer 62gr 556 ammo(if it really is an issue). What I have from my GI career 25 yrs ago. shoots well in all my 223s! The newer stuff from my 22 yr State LEO Career( 15 yr FBI trained Insturctor/3 gun) shoots well too! My most accurate 223 is a Rem 700 HB Varmint rifle circa 1973 w/handloads<.30. Best Tactical 223 is Kel-Tec SU16C w/ Eotect and WW Ranger LE 60gr NoslerPartitions 1 MOA !

[Jamie]

The only way you are going to know if it will work in your rifle is to try and chamber it in your rifle. I know lots of people shoot 5.56 in their .223s all the time but I have owned two firearms that saw high pressures when 5.56 was used. Popped primers type of high pressure. Never had a hint of cratering with .223 rounds.

Currently the only .223 I own is a Rock River with the Wylde chambering. Seems to work fine as I have put 10 shots in less than 1" with 55 grn spitzers. Oddly though, it doesn&#39;t like 75 grn A Maxes even though it is 1:8 twist.

[helotaxi]

2. The Military NATO EPVAT pressure standards are different than commercial American SAAMI standards and the pressures are not taken at the same point on the cartridge during testing and the pressure readings are higher "BUT" still exactly the same in reality.

3. The only real difference is the throat or leade as pictured above in front of the bullet, as you can see below there are eight different chamber reamers for the .223/5.56.

Because of number 3), number 2) is necessarily false. The allowable pressure is exactly the same. The issue is that the longer leade allows for a hotter load with the same chamber pressure. A load that is a "max" load under SAAMI and in a SAAMI chamber from a pressure standpoint will produce a lower chamber pressure in a 5.56 chamber. Similarly, the "max" 5.56 load in a 5.56 chamber will produce higher pressures in a SAAMI chamber.

The length of the bullet has nothing to do with it. The longer leade was included in the military chamber for reliability of function and to moderate pressure. Think bout it this way, whether loaded with a 62gn or 55gn the COAL is the same for military ammo. The bullet ogive is the same for both, the 62gn simply has more bullet in the case. The military went to a faster twist barrel because of the longer bullet (1:9 for the 62gn, 1:7 for the tracers), but the chamber specs never changed.

If being able to shoot 5.56 is that big a deal for you, a gunsmith can recut the leade to Wylde or one of the other hybrid chambers. Not sure it would be worth it, but it&#39;s your gun.