Bad Bore

[Hylander]

Yep, the Op is listening and yes it is already is on its way back. While I do appreciate everyone's input, that bore is unacceptable to me. I did come up with a load that shot well but after only a few groups accuracy started to suffer. That is why I scoped it. Copper fouling was bad after less than 30 rounds and took a lot of elbow grease to clean out. I have owned several Savage rifles in different calibers and this is the only one that had a bore like this. I only had one barrel like this and it was a Lother Walther, which they agreed was not acceptable and replaced it. Pretty sure Savage will replace the barrel as the lady I talked to, saw the pics I sent and agreed it looked like bad chatter.
Anyway, looking forward to getting it back, in the mean time I may buy another Savage to keep me busy.

[tomme boy]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.

[Turkeytider]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.

With my rifles, which are hunting rifles but which I enjoy at the range, where a hunting load hits first shot out of a cold, clean barrel is of GREAT interest to me. Rounds after that are gravy. I`m on the cusp of spending close to $1400 on a Savage factory rifle and I damn sure do not expect it to shoot like " dog poop "! My shooting sessions already have one source of " dog poop " already in play ( my marksmanship ability at times ). Certainly can`t take two!

[PhilC]

Should I post a pic of my 12FV barrel? Hmm...

[Hylander]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.

May not be the proper term, but since Lother Walther and Savage techs called it chatter thats what I'm calling it.
Do you really buy a new gun expecting it to shoot bad? Sorry, but I expect what I spend my money on to be decent quality.
Why should companies care about QC, if the end user will settle for what ever they get.
Also have to disagree about leaving the copper fouling alone for a long time. A little fouling yes, but a lot will deteriorate accuracy. Again accuracy started to suffer after about 30 rounds.

[tomme boy]

May not be the proper term, but since Lother Walther and Savage techs called it chatter thats what I'm calling it.
Do you really buy a new gun expecting it to shoot bad? Sorry, but I expect what I spend my money on to be decent quality.
Why should companies care about QC, if the end user will settle for what ever they get.
Also have to disagree about leaving the copper fouling alone for a long time. A little fouling yes, but a lot will deteriorate accuracy. Again accuracy started to suffer after about 30 rounds.

They call it that because they have to be able to talk to the lowest IQ on the phone and can understand what they are saying. If they replace the barrel don't expect it to be in any other shape than the one you sent in. As long as the reamer marks are not raised it will not matter if they are there or not. Savage barrels and others come around and start shooting better after a few hundred rounds. Why? because they need to be broken in right. Lets hear how you did that. It might tell us something useful.

These cheap bore scopes are really starting to wear thin on lots of manufactures. I have spoke to several barrel manufacturers that are going to be modifying their warranties because of them. Right now they are just replacing stuff because they don't want to deal with people that don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Good luck with your new barrel. And this time make sure you are not shooting Wolf steel case ammo. It might shoot better.

[charlie b]

While I don't disagree on what Savage might do, those are not reamer marks.

Note that the lands and grooves are marked equally. A reamer, such as one used in final dimensioning of the bore, would only mark the lands of the barrel. These marks had to be made during the rifling process. The use of 'button' rifling means all the grooves are cut in one pass of the broach. These marks are typical of a broach that is worn, used with too little lube, pushed too hard/fast, etc. The broach is rotated during use, but, it is rotated to match the rifling twist. And I also call those 'chatter' marks, which I learned from the master machinist who first taught me use of metal working tools.

[Hylander]

They call it that because they have to be able to talk to the lowest IQ on the phone and can understand what they are saying. If they replace the barrel don't expect it to be in any other shape than the one you sent in. As long as the reamer marks are not raised it will not matter if they are there or not. Savage barrels and others come around and start shooting better after a few hundred rounds. Why? because they need to be broken in right. Lets hear how you did that. It might tell us something useful.

These cheap bore scopes are really starting to wear thin on lots of manufactures. I have spoke to several barrel manufacturers that are going to be modifying their warranties because of them. Right now they are just replacing stuff because they don't want to deal with people that don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Good luck with your new barrel. And this time make sure you are not shooting Wolf steel case ammo. It might shoot better.

Didn't realize I was lowest IQ calling them.
I am not new to firearms, shooting or working on them, I do it day 5 days a week. I have a friend that is a gun smith, I personally know a master gun smith. I shoot a cast silhouette match once a month. Yes, I do have a clue what they are talking about. Yes, I do expect a better barrel when I get it back. Did I say I used Wolf ammo? Pretty sure I did not say what ammo I used. I said I properly broke in the barrel. You act like I'm trying to bash Savage and that I'm stupid, you are wrong on both accounts. You just seem bent on discrediting me for some reason.
Just so you know, ammo was Federal AE 55gr. For about the first 20 rounds, then hand loads.
Not going to detail my break-in procedure, but it takes about an hour, slow fire and lots of cleaning.
Anyway, heading to range now to do some shooting as the weather is great.

[Dave Hoback]

Hylander, easy man. Take a breath. Tommy wasn’t referring to your intellectual capacity in a diminutive manner. He was simply stating certain truths. It’s not that anyone is discounting you specifically.. it’s like I said previously, we’ve seen posts identical to yours with almost clock-like repetition. And all the stories generally follow the same guidelines. “Person gets new savage.. decides to borescope… sees marks… convinces themselves barrel is trash & commits to sending back.” And then when we here tell them these marks are common, and generally don’t hurt accuracy, their story tends to change. It morphs into it had bad accuracy all the while! (Even though accuracy was never mentioned in their initial post.) Now you did complain of Copper fouling, yet I haven’t met a barrel yet that was “easy” for Copper to clean out 100%. And barrel I have, I can clean until it’s shiny new! Let it sit a night and put a solvent patch down it next day. Some fouling will still come out.

All I can say is good luck, and hope the replacement looks better to you. But regardless, I would actually shoot at least 100yds then test it… BEFORE you condemn the barrel.

[Slowpoke Slim]

Dave,

Respectfully, you are telling the wrong poster to calm down and take a breath.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way. However tomme is just flat out over the top with his attitude. No way he "doesn't know" how he's coming across.

Not the first time I've encountered this exact same phenomenon since I've been back here. Some kind of cultural change in the forums over the last few years? Honestly, I don't care, it doesn't impress.

Not everyone who posts here is a "noob". Like Hylander, I myself also have tons of real world experience in this area. Been handloading since 1975, worked in the gun retail business for 20-ish years, shot competitively in service rifle, sillywet, and some benchrest, best friend was a gunsmith and master machinist. We shouldn't have to give our entire life's dissertation when we post to be "spared" the flaming of any certain "Savageshooters.com Guru" (whether they are, or just think they are a guru).

I first joined in 2009. I can remember when we could post any threads relative to Savage rifles (or shooting, or reloading, etc), WITHOUT receiving a childish rant or lecture in return.

In my book, "tomme" owes him an apology for his childish rant.

[Hylander]

Hylander, easy man. Take a breath. Tommy wasn’t referring to your intellectual capacity in a diminutive manner. He was simply stating certain truths. It’s not that anyone is discounting you specifically.. it’s like I said previously, we’ve seen posts identical to yours with almost clock-like repetition. And all the stories generally follow the same guidelines. “Person gets new savage.. decides to borescope… sees marks… convinces themselves barrel is trash & commits to sending back.” And then when we here tell them these marks are common, and generally don’t hurt accuracy, their story tends to change. It morphs into it had bad accuracy all the while! (Even though accuracy was never mentioned in their initial post.) Now you did complain of Copper fouling, yet I haven’t met a barrel yet that was “easy” for Copper to clean out 100%. And barrel I have, I can clean until it’s shiny new! Let it sit a night and put a solvent patch down it next day. Some fouling will still come out.

All I can say is good luck, and hope the replacement looks better to you. But regardless, I would actually shoot at least 100yds then test it… BEFORE you condemn the barrel.

Hey Dave,
I'm calm, not upset or anything with anyone.
I was just answering Tommy point by point.
Twice in his post he did sound condescending.
But again, not upset at all.

[Whynot]

Didn't realize I was lowest IQ calling them.
I am not new to firearms, shooting or working on them, I do it day 5 days a week. I have a friend that is a gun smith, I personally know a master gun smith.

What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?

[Hylander]

What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?

So there are your average gun smith's and there are guys like Tussey, Turnbull, Huntington etc.
No they don't call themselves that, it is just a term.