Reply With Quote4 thou difference in the OAL is not much...it will be fine. Any reason why you are trying to seat them right up to the lands?
And good luck!
I used pre fired Hornady brass , Federal Champion 215 primers , Magpro powder with 162 Hornady ELDX Match bullets .
I used Hornady's load data , I did ten of each , 60 , 62.4, 64.8, 67.2 and the max load of 69.6 grains .
I measured to the lands and my OAL was 3.420 . The OAL jumped around a bit as I went through the process , from 3.422 to 3.418 , not sure how or why ? Maybe my cheap calipers ?
I used the RCBS Matchmaker Dies , pretty slick really . [IMG][/IMG]
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4 thou difference in the OAL is not much...it will be fine. Any reason why you are trying to seat them right up to the lands?
And good luck!
Originally Posted by celltech
Because I spend to much time researching on you tube probably , LOL
I am new to this , but thought taking out the "jump" to the lands would make for a more accurate round ? Yes ? No ?
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In the lands or at "jam" may or may not be more accurate depending on what your barrel likes. It may like a 10 or 20 thousandths jump better... Only one way to find out. If you are happy with how your load shoots, no reason to go further. I personally like to jump 20 thou in most of my loads. I have loaded Bergers with an 80 thou jump and they shot unbelievably well. Congrats on the first loads! I have been loading for a couple years in 6.5 CM, 5.56, 270 Win, and 45-70 Govt, and just ust started with 300 Win Mag. It... Is... Addictive!
Yep, every bullet likes something different.
In my .308 the 155 Bergers liked to be seated into the lands. Hornady ELDM and Sierra Matchkings liked a bit of jump, 0.020-0.030. You also have to be careful with the powder load if you seat into the lands as it raises pressures a bit.
I concur. Might be better accuracy… might not be. This is the point of working up loads. But then, OAL should be your last thing to worry about. Figure out bullet & powder the barrel likes first, then play with seating depth.
I like my stuff in it when im trying to find a load. I take the broadest node and start in the middle working away from lands..
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
What caliber are you loading?
7mm Rem Mag Savage Long Range Hunter
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I'd be very careful with max loads when seated to the lands, pressure could get pretty high.
I think most here will say as New reloaders we tended to get hooked on speed. You will find most are more accurate at 3/4 speed from max or a touch over. NEVER get in a rush to get to max. ALWAYS REMEMBER when pressure signs start to show it is not that your starting to get there, it is that you are already over! And nothing I said is guaranteed for all guns. With the same powder charge and bullet I have see no signs to having primers blown out with nothing more then a brass or primer change.
.223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor
I'll second that.
For many years I was a max load kinda guy. This was before I could afford a chronograph as well. I'd just load up to the max book pressure and go shoot. Kinda lucky I never hurt myself or one of my guns. Why did I change? .45 Long Colt in a Ruger Blackhawk. I shot really heavy loads out of that thing and it was FUN!! (I was in my late 30's at the time). At the same time I would shoot heavy .357 and .45acp loads. After about a year of this I found my wrist would be sore the day after shooting. After another year and it would be sore for several days. About that time the gun mag writer Taffin reported on the permanent damage his arm had suffered. Then I found out from an Army buddy that some of the snipers were reporting permanent shoulder damage from shooting the higher power rifles.
So, I backed off on my loads. What I discovered is my accuracy increased a LOT, both from me and from the weapons. Turns out most guns don't like to be fired at max loads and will group much better at slightly lower charges. Now days I am frequently closer to the book minimum charge than I am the max. If I need a bullet to go faster I change the rifle cartridge to one made for that velocity rather than 'pushing' a lower velocity cartridge.
I work up a load in just a few steps. I do this for each bullet and powder combination. I only do this for precision rifles. Most pistols or hunting rifles I just pick a load and shoot it. If it groups anywhere near where I want I leave it. You do need a chronograph for this.
1. Velocity ladder to determine the nodes of the barrel. I load up a set at 0.1gn intervals, usually across a 1 or 2 grain range. This is only one bullet per load. I do plot the bullet impact on the target. Plot the velocity/charge curve and there will be some 'flat' spots or placed where the vel does not change as much with a change in powder charge. This is a node. Note" there will be 'fliers' in this. Bullet velocities that land higher or lower than the curve. I usually toss that data point as it either represents a load that will be inconsistent or it is a round that I messed up the load.
2. I pick two nodes and then load up 5 rounds each. Pick the one with the smallest group.
3. I do another ladder, 0.1 and 0.2gn above and below, 5 rounds each. Pick the best.
4. Then a seating depth test. Start at a slight jam and work back in .005" increments. 3 rounds each. Pick one.
Done.
Without a chronograph you can still do ladder tests. Just start with 3 round groups. You will see a 'node' as the groups get a little smaller, then get larger again. Takes a few more rounds this way but it still works.
Excellent posts from Blue Avenger and charlie b!
When I started "making ammo" in the mid-80s, it was primarily pistol but also for my 7RM. I found a mid-range charge met my objective so stopped there and never altered the recipe.
I did a quick search on the ELDX and found several posts where guys found they performed best off the lands, some as much as .080". Not all rifles, nor all bullets will perform best at or into the lands, most seemed to fall in the .020" - .030" off range.
Were that my rifle, and with component prices what they are, I'd start at touch to a couple thou off the lands and follow in .010" increments back to .050". Suspect you'll find a good node within that range.
Wow , good stuff and thank you guys ! Now , I know this sounds stupid , but is there any reason for me not to just seat these a little deeper ? The ones I've already loaded ?
I have ten of each load weight , what if I seated three at .020 off and three at .030 off of each charge ? Or do two rounds each ? Start at ten off and work my way back ? Would two be enough to tell me anything ? Without a chronograph .
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If you want to check the differences that's what I would do. I'd do the .010 and .020, 5 each. Chrono is nice but not necessary.
You sound like me when I started. It does seem logical the closer you could get to the lands the better but that has not been my experience. In fact, most of what I shoot seems to like a pretty good jump. It may be different on extremely accurate, high dollar target rifles but not on my $300-$350 rifles. I think they are quite accurate, I have a couple that will do considerably better than .5 MOA with the right bullets. No doubt there are many on this board that would laugh at .3-.5 MOA but I think it is pretty decent.
I think the .004" differnce could be variation in the bullets. They aren't absolutely perfect.
The target will tell you which load your rifle likes, a chronograph won't.
Well , I got to the range today , I'm impressed . The first picture is factory loads on the left and reloads on the right , minimum charge and I was aiming at the top target , but a pretty nice group , Right ?
The next picture is at max load , and the group climbed back up to the target I was aiming at . Everything in between was just ok , IMO
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Awesome! “Holes touching”… =, muey, muey bueno! What’s more, ya gotta love the pretty much ALL of your loads shoot better than factory ammunition. I learned this from a friend many years ago, and I recite it to other, newer enthusiasts today: just basic case prep will typically give your reloads better accuracy than any factory ammunition. Of course this is not 100%. There are always exceptions, but the fact remains the majority of anything reloaded will yield greater accuracy than anything you pull off a shelf.
That is a very questionable idea....
Hand loading allows you to personalize the round to what your rifle likes- but if you are not doing that- and just making quality reloads then no reason to expect it to shoot better than quality factory ammo. I know many people that don't reload and do very well with factory ammo in competitions. If you break down some premium factory ammo you will find the powder changes to be very consistent and the overall quality very high (yes- the cheap stuff can be all over). It can also be hard to get an accurate picture because often people with more shooting experience (more skilled) are the ones that reload....
I would agree. I have put together many hand loads that do not shoot as well as some factory loads. When working up loads I have had some that were really poor groups, worse than standard factory stuff.
It does depend on what your rifle likes. Some do very well with std factory loads, and even excellent with factory premium/match ammo. By reloading I can usually do better than the premium loads, at MUCH less cost, but, it takes some tweaking of the load and being selective of the bullets used.
Once you 'go down the rabbit hole' you can spend a lot of time and resources getting better, for example, going from 1" groups to 1/2" groups is frequently 'easy'. But, going from 1/2" to 1/4" is 'hard' if not impossible with your equipment and your shooting skills.
FWIW, I do very little case prep. Basically camfer the case mouth and load them up. I will sort the brass based on weight/volume. My skills are just not up to snuff to get consistent groups below 1/2MOA so my assembly of ammunition reflects this limitation.
Like I said, there are always exceptions. But I’ll ask this of you experienced reloaders: if you were to load 10 separate loads using quality components/match bullets, and purchased 10 different boxes of factory match ammunition.. which set of 10 would you BET on having better accuracy? (I mean groups of each different cartridge, not the 10 as ONE group.)
Where would YOUR money be?
In the example above I would put my money on the factory ammo.... it's difficult to imagine just randomly selecting match grade components and having it out perform Federal Gold Medal. If you look at that ammo it has almost all 5 star reviews- and that shows that a lot of effort went into creating a round that works in a huge variety of firearms. I have had times where the first ammo loaded flat out worked, but it's rare- more rare than having factory ammo that does it. Even with lots of tweaking and tuning I've never been able to match the accuracy that I've got from factory ABM (now burger ammo) in my 300 win mag and when I finally got my hand loads to shoot as good as some sig factory stuff I was thrilled.
IF it is the 'developed' load for each of those quality bullets, then mine of course. But, if it is just 10 different loads out of the book, even with quality components, then I'd pick the factory match ammo.
Keep in mind a lot of people compete at some high levels with factory match ammo.
One of the main reasons I reload is cost of that ammo.
Thanks again for the replies . I tried a different bullet and powder , and took two rifles to the range . This time I loaded ELDX match bullets 150 grain with RL22 , following Hornadys load recipe , I tried different loads .
The two guns were a Savage Long Range hunter with a 26 inch barrel and a old 110E with a Criterion 24 inch barrel .
I was shocked to find the stock barrel was more accurate than the Criterion .
The top half of the target was the LRH and the bottom was the criterion . Shooting the same loads , while there was a noticeable difference with the
LRH , nothing performed very well in the criterion barrel . The Criterion is basically new , maybe 50 rounds through . The Criterion is a 1 in 9 twist .
Your thoughts??
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