New Firing pin spring choice.

**wbm** · 10-09-2021, 10:21 AM

_.

**Fuj'** · 10-09-2021, 02:15 PM

Fred mentioned the term "cold fire". I believe it's what I know as "cold flash". We did tests
using a 38 special model 10 Smith & Wesson, heavy barrel with a Bomar rib, using 148 grain
wad cutters. and 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Fire arm was mounted in a ransom rest. The test
was about using hammer springs only ounces apart to look for any deviations in grouping
and velocities. Back then, we only had the resources of an Ohler 33.....We tried light springs
to find the boundary of consistent ignition then worked our way up. As we worked up in spring
weight, groups opened and closed, and velocities increased. These were my findings and used
it to win several PP match's before moving on to IPSC.

I would think using a Lab Radar, A dedicated load, and 10 springs about a pound apart would
suffice for a test.

**Dave Hoback** · 10-09-2021, 02:56 PM

I like that idea Fuj. Unfortunately I left my Doppler Chrono in my OTHER life, LOL!

Im just doing things the old fashioned way. I’m gonna test things, use my experience & see what shooting groups tell me. Remember, this whole thing is just ME sharing what I’m doing & how it’s working for me. I’m not telling anyone they should imitate. I always tell people to educate themselves & make their own informed decision.

**Robinhood** · 10-09-2021, 06:46 PM

Dave, don't let pride get in the way of credibility. I am all for what you are working on but you have stretched yourself very thin. Jim Borden, David Tubbs, Chad Dixon(long Rifles), German Salazar and a slew of other famous gunsmith/action maker/builders and competitors will tell you the same thing Fred is telling you. He is not trying to belittle you. He is keeping facts on the table. I have had pm's and forum messages from some of the top guys in the shooting industry in response to questions about this very topic. Consistent and correct amount of energy at primer impact are important for accuracy. If your happy with just hitting the target, maybe not so much. I am out of pocket at the moment but I will dig for some of the better responses if you would like to see them.

Again, I am all for experimentation and new ideas but there are absolutes that must be adhered to.

Thanks for the experienced post FUJ

**Dave Hoback** · 10-09-2021, 07:52 PM

Yeah, I don't drink koolAid. Did 20 some years ago. Not anymore. I don't doubt any his or any of the others expertise. In fact I've agreed with them on more than I can remember. But that means nothing to me. THIS is not an an absolute. I can direct to the severel articles I've read. Has nothing to do do with "pride". This is NOT a set truth, because so & so gunsmith says so.. seriously! I don't care who they are. I don't take anything at a person's word. I go research it myself. This is not something new to me. I read things online of BOTH arguments on this years ago. Here's the thing, what I said is correct: "There are dissenting arguments on this by knowledgeable people & NEITHER can prove their point 100%." Now tell me that statement is wrong?? If you do, you're disingenuous. You can BELIEVE either argument. But my statement is true. And I'm sorry, but I'm putting faith in a homebrew "test" by someone with an already bias point of of view. We have a way of making "tests" in dissenting arguments come out proving our own points! Just look at the nonstop BULL-SH** from Evolutionist scientists.

Also, whether anyone else thinks there was no condescedance directed towards me is irrelevant. Because "1, 2, 3 - 4, 5, OH! I know something you don't know!" And that makes me QUITE unpopular with certain somebodys. Which is fine...we don't have to friends. I simply expect the same curtesy that they do. That said, we'll let sleeping E-mails lay. But I digress.

Back to our regular scheduled program... for anyone that cares. I loaded up 5 new dummy rounds. These are loaded to 2.850"OAL I can go probably 2.875-2.880" in my AICS mag. One of things I just did was throating my Shilen barrel, as it was pretty short from them. It was hitting the lands at like 2.330" on the ogive. This was only giving me like 2.730"oak MAX with ZERO jump. I still need to make another video. But I need some help holding the camera. This thing is smooth & really, really fast. It's the quickest Savage Action loafing I've ever seen. I have the rifle in the cleaning stand(which weighs maybe 12oz!), and not holding the rifle or the stand, I cycle all 5. From closed bolt I load a round, pull the trigger, eject the round & repeat. I wish I could get someone with two arms to properly hold at aiming rest & cycle. I'll do a video soon.

**Dave Hoback** · 10-09-2021, 08:01 PM

Also Robin, to be honest.... I really am just interested in hitting the target anymore. I’ll never be as accurate again as I once was. But I can still get the job done. Until the One eye I have fails me. Already completely blind in my Left eye. So...

Here’s a pic of those new dummy rounds I made up.

**Dave Hoback** · 10-09-2021, 08:01 PM

Duplicate

**Robinhood** · 10-10-2021, 06:41 PM

Pistol recoil springs, what your real experience is in, has different implications. Pistol firing pin springs rarely change much more than a pound plus or minus. Never heard you talk about rifles much. If you work up a load you are interested in accuracy. If you buy factory ammo and shoot for the fun of it or even looking for minute of deer on the back 40 so be it. Two perfectly fine ideologies. As for altering rifles, there is only a few outcomes that my mind can wrap around. Aesthetics and function. If it is not for looks it must be for performance. The barometer that comes to my mind for performance is, does it improve accuracy in the condition it was developed for?

**mnbogboy2** · 10-11-2021, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Robinhood

Dave, don't let pride get in the way of credibility. I am all for what you are working on but you have stretched yourself very thin. Jim Borden, David Tubbs, Chad Dixon(long Rifles), German Salazar and a slew of other famous gunsmith/action maker/builders and competitors will tell you the same thing Fred is telling you. He is not trying to belittle you. He is keeping facts on the table. I have had pm's and forum messages from some of the top guys in the shooting industry in response to questions about this very topic. Consistent and correct amount of energy at primer impact are important for accuracy. If your happy with just hitting the target, maybe not so much. I am out of pocket at the moment but I will dig for some of the better responses if you would like to see them.

Again, I am all for experimentation and new ideas but there are absolutes that must be adhered to.

Thanks for the experienced post FUJ

I've hada recent skirmish with ftf. Several bolt rebuilds and spring changes led me to the investigation of possible cause. It finally was narrowed down to faulty loads.
My primer arm and priming pin on my 55 year old Herters press was installing primers at a slight angle ad distorting the primer cups, unleashing the anvil from the assembled primer. The past year revealed thousands of loose anvils while depriming. Which was not a normal resit in the past. Ftf with loose headspace and deep seated primer combination also became common shown as light strikes on primers. On one occasion the primer popped and set the bullet inthe lands. Opening the action with the h335 (blc2) powder and while in the safe fine powder found its way through the firing pin hole in the boot head and bound up the pin and spring adding to problems along the way.
Pull downs after ftf showed partially burned stick powder ( salt & pepper colors).
One fully dented ,2 strikes primer when deprived showed black of the burn along with the loose anvil .
Tone ftf had a hang fire that easily could have hurt me or that rifle.
It pushed my hand back as it was opened but the powder did not ignite that one scared me and also jammed the bullet in the lands. My dad warned me about hangfire years ago
I don't know if he learned about them in the service ( army ww2) or if he read about them.
Always after ftf I'm very careful and open slowly.
I've had a couple years ago do to moisture in them and one I can control its to sneezing.
Now primer installation, headspace and contamination.

**Dave Hoback** · 10-11-2021, 05:53 PM

“Classic Dave on full display.”

Gee, thanks for that. But uh, I’m not the one attacking members here. Real classy....Very telling about character.

**mnbogboy2** · 10-12-2021, 01:22 PM

Aftee seeing well hit primers blackened & resulting in ftf makes me believe in :cold fire.
Twice the ftf resulted in salt & pepper powder where every other kernel was light brown.
My press producing loose anvil was another indication that light strikes can result in no bang.
My next experiment would be to return to improper priming with the old parts in my press and pop thenin the shop. If i used my bore cam to examine for misplaced anvils.
Earlier posts by Dave H. Prompted me to experiment with shorter springs, I was able to achieve a one finger lift! I'm working on an idea for a firing pin spring compressor to replace one I built several years ago.
The velocity test mentioned above should be possible with a magneto speed as well as a lab radar.
Magneto speed gets a big shout out from me as they just replaced mine after it quit on me after two years of almost daily use. Problem was in the cable where it leaves the bayonet.
The warrantee is for 2 years and was the first time I've ever needed one on anything. No airbag recall on this one.