Reply With QuoteHave you compared the dimensions where the marks are with the same area on the lapua?
I have a savage long action rifle I built probably around 12 years ago. It started out as a model 111 in 270 I bought brand new. I took it out of the box, pulled the action out of the stock and sent it straight to douglas barrels and had them install one of their barrels on it. I then installed it into a choate ultimate varmint stock.
I have put a bunch of rounds through it over the years.
Several years ago I tore it down and had the action timed and trued after I found this site. Been shooting it since then with no issues.
I mainly handloaded for it. While I can not remember what brass I originally started using when I first built the rifle. I had no issues. About the same time I had the action timed and trued, I bought some lapua brass and have been using that about 90% of the time. I have shot some hornady factory loaded ammo through it a couple years or so ago with no issue.
Well I had some ppu ammo I wanted to try out. I know it was not going to be super accurate, but I wanted to try just for kicks.
Well I load up the mag and go to chamber a round and the bolt goes almost all the way into battery but then stops just shy. Like right as the handle starts to be able to go down, but it will not. Strange I think. So I try to pull the round back out and the bolt will not move. The bolt is fully raised, but the round will not pull out of the chamber. I give the bolt handle a few smacks with my hand with no issue. I try a light mortar with no luck. I try it again with no luck. With the butt on the ground, I smack the handle harder with my hand and it still will not move.
I ended up having to take a piece of a 2x4 and use it as a hammer on the bolt handle and finally get the round out of the chamber. I ended up bending/cracking my bolt handle I had to hit it so hard! I had to order a new one. Everything else seems fine.
I inspect the round and everything looks fine, but I notice a ring around the base, just above the extractor groove where you could see it was where the round had stuck.
I inspected the chamber with a bore scope and everything looks fine. I try another round but was very gentle with it. It wanted to stick as well. Thankfully I was able to hit the bolt with my hand and get it back out.
I get some of my fire formed lapua brass and it chambers just fine. I try the hornady brass I have and it chambers fine as well.
I have some S&B and Norma factory loaded ammo. I try those (gently) and the Norma wants to stick at the base, just like the ppu, and the S&B shows marks starting from about halfway down to just above the extractor groove.
I take my calipers and measure the fire formed lapua brass I have and the case head measures .478. I measure the area above the extractor groove and it measures .477. I measure the ppu and the case head measures .478, and the area it stuck, just above the extractor groove, measured .477. According to my calipers, they both measure the same, what the...? I measure the S&B and the case head measures .476, and just above the extractor groove measures .475. Now I am really confused, as it measures smaller and unless I am missing something, should chamber perfectly fine, but it will not.
So does anyone have any idea what gives? I am just totally confused at this. Could the hornady and lapua have been smaller and then fireformed to the chamber, which is right at the same dimension as the norma, ppu, and s&b ammo?
So is this chamber just very tight, to the point I can not chamber/fire 90% of the factory loaded ammo out there, and I have just never noticed/found the issue until now when I tried to fire some factory ammo?
If that is the case, then I would like to fix this, as I want to be able to fire factory ammo if/when I want to. What would be the cure, run a finishing reamer into the chamber a little to try and help open it up a tiny bit? I can not really think of a way to try and polish/open up the chamber with some compound without running the risk of damaging it.
I will attach a picture of the ppu round that stuck, next to one that was never chambered. You can see the slight ring around it above the extractor groove where it stuck.
Have you compared the dimensions where the marks are with the same area on the lapua?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Possibly consider pulling the barrel and polishing the Chamber. You can measure the chamber where the case stuck and compare. A lathe would be nice to do some inspections. Without knowing any history it is a shot in the dark.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
When Lapua & Hornady ammo works & others don't it makes me think ammo over the rifle.
My approach would start with a thorough cleaning of the chamber. If that didn't cure the problem then i would pull some of the suspect PPU and S&B bullets and resize in my sizer die.
Hopefully the chamber clean/polish would clear up the problem. If the resize does it may point at the quality of the suspect ammo. PPU & S&B have a reputation of being cheaper and quality worldwide seems to be "falling" all the time.
Could be a combination of chamber condition & off spec ammo.
Good luck
You say Douglas did the work for you. By chance did you get the
reamer print and fired cases ?? Your chamber is probably not a
true SAMMI, but a tight match cut. Have a smith do a chamber cast.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
Originally Posted by Fuj'
Excellent train of thought FUJ
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I got a fired case back with the barreled action when I got it back from douglas. I think I have that case somewhere, would just have to try and find it. As for any paperwork or reamer prints, I do not remember getting anything like that. But it was around 12+ years ago.
Just like in my original post, I measured the cases at the same points and the ppu measured the same as the fire formed lapua. The s&b actually measured smaller. But still neither one will chamber, while the lapua and hornady chamber just fine.
I have two Swedish mausers and the ppu, s&b, and norma all chamber in them without any issues. But those I'm sure have loose mil spec chambers. However one is a CG-63 which is a marksmanship rifle, those have heavier target barrels. Not that it would mean the chamber is any different.
I clean out the chamber on every rifle I own with a bore mop soaked in carb cleaner after every firing. But I suppose I could chuck up a little 0000 steel wool on a old cleaning rod and try to give it a cleaning with that and a little bore solvent.
I would use some black marker on one of the cases (of each brand, including the 'good' ones) and slide them into the chamber with your fingers. Push just a bit until they stop. Then remove (might have to tap them with a cleaning rod from the muzzle). Then you can be sure of where they are touching the chamber. Also note how far they go in the chamber.
I'd call Douglas and ask if their reamers are SAAMI or minimum or something else.
Could it be it is chambered in 6.5x55 Scandinavian ? It is very similar to the Swedish. If I recall it is a more modern variation of the Swedish but allows for higher pressures....
After many rounds for many years i doubt if it is a tight chamber. Continued use with your handloads in Lapua & Hornady support that.
It is possible that when you sent this out the second time for the T&T, that headspace was set on the "tight" side and it does not agree with all brands of brass including the "suspect" ones.
Check or have someone check the actual headspace with a go-gauge + shims (if any).
Dang.....I missed the part about the T&T !! I must be getting old ??
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
When I had it timed and trued, I bought a action wrench and barrel nut wrench and tore it down, sending only the action. I removed the factory recoil lug (that douglas had re used) and replaced it with a thicker/machined one. I reinstalled and headspaced the barrel myself using new brass and some tape (like many on here do). I *think* the hornady was the only factory ammo I have used since the T&T, as I simply had been using my own handloads for a long time using the lapua brass.
I have put probably a couple thousand rounds through this rifle in total since it was built, with about 90% of them the first few years after I bought it. I can not remember what brass I was using back then (was a long time ago), but I had pretty much wore it out. I had it T&T, and shot maybe 2-3 hundred rounds but life changed a little for a long time and it sat in the safe for many years un touched. My handloads with the lapua brass was the main ammo that was shot through it after the T&T. My notes show I have shot the lapua 3 times, so that is 300 rounds. I then shot the 20 rounds of hornady, then reloaded that brass twice and shot it. That was the last I shot it. That was 2 years ago. I can not give the exact timeline for everything as I can not remember all of it perfectly.
I would think if the headspace was too tight, it would be hitting at shoulder, and not at the base of the case, simply making the bolt hard to close, but have no issues extracting the case. Unless I am missing something?
But it is sticking/touching at the very end of the mouth of the chamber, as if either the brass is slightly oversized (with 3 brands) or the chamber is slightly underside in that area, or maybe a little of both.
You might be onto something. I need to do some more reading later when I have some more time. But I seem to be seeing mention that there are "slight differences" in the dimensions, but can not find anything giving actual measurements.
I did see most everything mention the scan is higher pressure and not to use it in older swede mausers. And the funny part was, where it showed loads, they all showed using LAPUA brass.
I am out of time right now, but will try and search further on it later today.
If it is sticking at the end of the case mouth it is very possible it is "hard carbon" in that end of the chamber. Often first noticed when brass is thicker in the neck but most often when it is longer. Bore cam will easily show it. Often tough to remove without seeing it. Chemicals like "bathroom" CLR will soften it.....but can be very "harsh"....(loves blueing...dont ask).
Short trim on cases allow for more build up and in my experience will notice it when shooting longer brass. Often the fired brass will show signs of the carbon by irregular carbon "imprints" around the mouth end of the case.
Normal cleaning often doesnt touch it.
Something to look at anyway.
Do you have the comparator to measure base to shoulder? I saw you measured the base diameter. I would investigate headspace further, maybe buy a go gauge and see how that fits.
I do not have a comparator to measure the cases with.
Like I said in my original post, I did check the chamber with a bore scope after the case stuck and everything looked fine. I only saw bare metal and no signs of carbon. Hopefully after work one day this week I will have time to scrub it with some 0000 steel wool wrapped around a old chamber brush, on a old cleaning rod and spin it with a drill at low speed.
I did find this thread on gunboards: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/6-...estion.245004/
On page two they talk about one interchanging with the other, but not the other way around.
However one person posted up dimensions of the two and the 6.5x55 swede is actually slightly smaller at the base than the 6.5x55 skan.
I appears the 6.5x55 skan is a higer pressure version of the 6.5x55 swede, made for modern sporting or target rifles and is not meant to be shot in older swede mausers or krags. However the dimensions shown in the pictures posted in that thread, show the skan is slightly larger in dia above the extractor groove. It shows the swede as .477, and the skan as .480. The case head is shown as .480 on both, with the swede going slightly smaller just above the extractor groove.
However, on wikipedia (I know, not a good source) is shows a drawing of 6.5x55 in metric and it shows 12.20mm as the rim dia and the same just above the extractor groove. 12.20mm is .480.
So now I really do not know what measurement is right. But if it is supposed to be .480, and my fireformed brass measures .477, then I would think this chamber is slightly on the tight side.
Could maybe this have been cut with a slightly underside or recently resharpened reamer, putting this chamber right at the very min of spec?
Or is the lapua brass and the hornady brass slightly below min spec and chambers fine, but the other brands of ammo are at the spec, making them too tight for this chamber? I do not have any new/unfired lapua brass to measure, and the ppu, s&b, and norma are the only factory ammo I have.
But if this chamber is tight at the breech, it would make sense as it would seem like it would be causing the exact issue I am having.
While having it tight might be good for shooting matches, I do not shoot matches (even though I built it as a target rifle). I only shoot for fun. I would much rather this rifle be able to chamber and shoot factory ammo, than be limited to only 1-2 types of brass.
Sorry i forgot that you had inspected with the bore scope.
It will most likely not be neck carbon if you didn't see it.
A check with a go-gauge would be the next step. Being you used a new case and tape before then it could still be on the short (tight) side. Most new brass is way under SAAMI at the shoulder dimension. That said it could be several thousandths tighter than a go gauge.
As you said the PPU ammo was almost in before it "stuck". The taper of the case combined with being pushed in a tad too far could easily wedge it (think of a dry case in a sizing die).
But if you still have the tools to remove the barrel my next step would be mark/index the nut and barrel on the bottom side and remove the barrel. With the barrel off you will be able to try the various cases in the chamber you should not be able to make them "stick" by hand if the case head protrudes about .125 plus or minus .005. That is how far a headspace gauge protrudes out of a most Savage chambers. If it "sticks" with more case head out then indeed the brass is too tight for the chamber.
Hope you get it figured out.
Well I went to the local gun store to see if they had any 6.5x55. They had some winchester for $39 a box, and some federal fusion for $32, so I got the federal.
I measured it and the head measures .475, and just below the extractor groove, it measured .473. I tested it and it chambered perfectly fine.
So it would seem there is probably a combination of things going on here.
Seems european made cases/ammo is slightly larger in diameter than US made ammo, and my chamber is slightly on the small/tight side of things.
I can take the federal, point the muzzle down and drop it in the chamber. It goes in till it hits the shoulder. I push it in with my finger and it does not go in any more. I can then tilt the muzzle up and the round will slide back out.
I do this test with the ppu, s&b, or norma, and they all stop before it hits the shoulder. If I did not push the round in with my finger, I have to smack the side of the gun to make it fall back out. If I push on the round with my finger, even a small amount, I have to push the bolt forward and snap the extractor over the rim and then smack the bolt handle back with my hand to get it back out.
I would much rather be able to chamber any 6.5x55 ammo I have than have a super tight chamber. I do not compete or do ultra long range shooting, so being able to shoot whatever I want is more important than a tight chamber.
Looks like I am going to be looking at having the chamber re reamed. I would think just running a proper sized finishing reamer into the chamber should be enough to get it working good.
This is what I would do, take the round that does not fit and remove the decapping pin in your die and full length resize. and see if it fits. If it does your chamber may be a little tight for the European ammo.
To correct it you could take a new piece of brass or even better break down a round that don't fit and drill out the primer hole and put a very long screw through it then a nut on the back of the case to lock it down, apply some valve lapping compound attach to a drill go nice and slow clean check, clean check. The lapping compound comes in different grits start course then fine when your getting close. GO REAL SLOOW. When you get it right you can use auto polishing compound on a cotton swab cleaning rod drill and let it rip comes out super slick and shiny.
I have done this on 45 Match chambers before. I learned that match chambers meant that it doesn't match what I have.
I just reread your last post disregard step 1. it's a tight chamber. Your talking .001-002 problem. you can focus just on the affected area. And the bonus part is you have the barrel wrench so you could take the barrel off and use a shorter screw. having the different ammo that's like having multiple go gauges right at your finger tips!
All of this is just my opinion and what I would do cause I am cheap and don't have any extra money,and a lot of time on my hands plus I like tinkering.
If you try this let me know how it works out. good luck ROLL TIDE!!!
I do have a few different types of lapping compound, and your idea sounds interesting. However, with brass being so much softer than the hard steel barrel, I would think it would simply wear into the brass shell long before it would take anything off the chamber?
Here is a pic of the one I made.it works.
I bought a "match" barrel for a 45 I was building and fit it, and was having feeding issues. Called all around nobody had a finishing reamer, got frustrated and came up with this idea. I took my time working it in and out, cleaned,checked. and after a little while using some of my reloads that where having the problems to check with it cleared up.
When I read your post I thought I would pass this along. One thing in your favor is you have the actual chamber reamer in your hand. I know the brass is softer thats why I kept the RPMs down and changed the lapping compound often. What dou you have to loose? if you break it down and it don't work you got your barrel ready to ship off.
Your cost will only be your time! ROLL TIDE!!! I live 18 miles from Clemson.
The more I think about this the more curious I get. Your reloading die should be to SAMMI specs. I wonder how one of the rounds, or brass in question preforms in the seating die compared to some new US made ammo,brass. Basically a plunk test. You already know it don't fit the chamber, if it doesn't fit the die I would think the ammo is out of spec.
I agree with you 100% on making it work with whatever you get cause all of the focus should be on the target not worrying about the gun all the time. If the ammo is out of spec a SAMMI reamer may not be the answer. I think it's in the taper being a little off. I deduce this from the pic, the fact that appears to go the full 360 around the case. so from what I can see it's in the throat of the chamber angle, exactly the issue I had.I used a little sideways force as well as in and out to correct the barrel I fixed.
Before I bubba’d up a lap and went to town in the chamber I’d probably just avoid the PPU ammo. Especially if it’s a good shooter. I’d also avoid putting a reamer to it.
Three different brands! he wants reliability
I'd have to agree with gbflyer......
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
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