Reply With Quote"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".
Erik Cortina, Team Lapua USA
I am looking for opinions on this for accuracy. Some say the full length is better since the entire case is supported when the neck is sized. That is a true statement but when you remove the case and the expander is pulled through the neck it isn't. It looks to me like this argument doesn't hold water but it is possible I am overlooking something. I am no expert and looking to learn.
"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".
Erik Cortina, Team Lapua USA
If its a bolt then neck sizing is typical with every few firings with proper annealing can stop other problems from happening.Originally Posted by Mr.Snerdly
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In my bolt guns, really gas too i anneal every time and about every 3rd load on bolts I full length rezize with controlled shoulder bumb.. does it help?? I reckon you can find arguments both side, i know i don't get donating and excellent accuracy and alot of reloads out of my starline but as I said im sure there are many opinions.
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I size my brass minimally with a full length sizer die, and I jump through some hoops to minimize runout. I’m using a Lee pace setters set of dies (not your preferred manufacturer) but I like to see what I can get out of tools for the more budget minded shooter.
When I was shooting Factory Class benchrest in the eighties, the Unlimited shooters swore by neck sizing, so I emulated them. But I had problems with case stretching, shoulders working their way up, making chambering difficult and resizing impossible due to embrittlement. So I went back to good ol' full-length sizing and never looked back.
You can do some Factory Class with the benchrest shooters to get your feet wet without too much expense, using any off-the-shelf rifle, a bolt gun recommended. You'll be amazed at some of the good habits you can pick up.
Full length sizer here. Years ago I eliminated the drag out mandrel.
Reason being was not to mess with my carbon build up. What I have
been doing for a long time is honing the inside of the FL die so that
the neck is just sized slightly under my neck tension numbers. Problem
with most FL dies is they over size the necks. Next operation is the
Lee Collet die. The mandrel lightly brings the neck to my tension numbers.
and the collet does a slight squeeze on neck against said mandrel.
Run out has never been an issue with my method. 1/2 MOA's and under
are the norm.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
I think it depends upon what kind of shooting you do. If you're a benchrest competitor who waits for the ideal wind condition and then quickly shoot your for-record shots, often without taking time to aim, the last thing you want are cartridges that are hard to chamber and that might upset the rifle. The rat turd in the violin case is the rule for that type of shooting. Watch some of the videos where world class competitors wait patiently and then fire off 10 rounds in less than a minute, cycling the bolt as fast as they can.
If you're not in a competition and time is not a factor, a tight fitting case is reputed to help center the case in the chamber and bullet in the throat, providing better consistency. Also a bullet seated well into the lands may provide the best accuracy for your shooting, but a competition shooter who may have to eject a live round would be hesitant to seat in the lands because it may stick a bullet in the lands and dump powder in the action necessitating clearing and cleaning and loss of match.
So there is a best reason for various techniques based upon what and how you shoot. It's been my experience that many who proclaim that their method is best fail to clarify why it's best for their particular type of shooting, and how that might not be for another type of shooting.
As always, if you want the whole picture you have to search diligently for information from a variety of sources. Context is everything, and not everybody shoots competitively and on a national scale.
I do not compete and do not FL size my 223 brass. Cases are only FL sized once I begin to experience hard chambering or hard eject. That might be once every 8 or 10 cycles. I also anneal once neck tension start to rise due to work hardening. By neck sizing only I delay the onset of hardening by reducing the work cycles caused by FL sizing.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
I neck size all my bolt gun brass BUT, sooner or later you'll have to body or full length resize. When the bolt gets "harder" to close, it's size time.
My bolt guns will not take factory sized brass. Head space is set tight/snug so less brass gets moved to get the fit I'am after.
What it boils down to is whatever makes you happy is what you end up doing.
We DO change our ideas and opinions over the years so enjoy the ride.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Well said!
Neither.
My shooting is either practice (targets) or hunting. So I need a cartridge that will always chamber (bolt action and break-open single shot). But I want the best possible accuracy. I use a full-length die but a set of "competition" bump shell holders (5 that are 0.002" stepped) and choose the deepest one that just begins to set the shoulder. You can do the same by backing out a F/L die - but this is repeatable and precise. I also neck turn after two firings, inside taper the primer vent (new brass) and check for run-out/concentricity. As Texas10 said the less you work a case the longer it's life and less work-hardening.
I get a LOT more time available to reload than I do to shoot so I don't mind performing a bit of time-consuming work at the bench. I find it therapeutic and relaxing. Sure beats TV.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik
I have gone both ways with little difference in performance for me. I only have the three rifles. Axis .223, 12BVSS .308, and the Garand. And I am not that good a shooter, 1/2MOA most of the time is about what I can do.
The ammo I make and the two bolt guns can do that easily with neck sizing (Lee Collet). I do not anneal cases at all and they go 12 reloads before needing a full length size (Lapua). The .308 I have had some winchester brass go 15 reloadings neck sizing only (no annealing). Those cases are still good, I just don't use them right now.
The Garand I full length size every time just to make sure rounds chamber ok (I also put a heavy crimp on the bullets, also a Lee collet). I don't shoot it as much so don't have any idea how many reloads I will get out of the cases (Lake City). But, with the open sights and my eyes I am lucky to get less than 2MOA with it.
I do have a theory about the neck sizing I have done and I think it pertains to how the Lee Collet dies work. Instead of sliding into an undersize die and then enlarging with a button, the collet cold forms the neck around a mandrel. This compresses the brass and I think the stresses in the brass are less this way.
Some of the bench rest folks also avoid this kind of thing by not sizing at all. They chamber the rifle such that the fired brass springs back just enough to hold the bullet. Not sure how many times they have to anneal brass to make that work but I know they fire the same brass several times without anything else done to it.
BUT.......the real reason I neck size sometimes is because I am lazy. :) The Lee die does not need any lube. Just run the cases through. No mess, no fuss.
I remember when I first Google'd this topic.
Yeah. Me too. Almost as bad as googling "breaking in a barrel".
Life is good Sir.
Some might say its overdoing it but on harder brass like lake city, lapua, imi, i anneal every reload and it does seen to rellay help with getting more consistent shoulder set.. just my experience.. btw, forster br fl and hornady bushing for necksizing
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Mr. Snerdly this is my take on the subject, when the round is fired the brass expands to close off the chamber. Then the brass is full length resized back down again To SAMMI specs, repeating this process will work harden the brass resulting is reduced brass life. Neck sizing reduces this stress on the brass case.
I have seen the videos and read the texts, but I'm sorry, I am still not going to stop neck sizing.
The paper in front of my rifle does not lie. All my bolt guns get significantly better accuracy when neck sized.
I even tried a experiment. I started with new brass. I picked a bullet and a powder charge. I fired them and kept the targets. I then neck sized and used the exact same load (primer, power, charge, bullet, and seating depth. I fired them again and had noticeably tighter groups. I then FL sized the brass, and repeated the exact same load again. The groups opened back up.
That is all the testing/proof I needed.
While it might work for some people, it does not work for me.
Me either. Both have their place. The most accurate rifle I ever fired was a friends Hart Barrel 6PPC on a Remington target action. He shot a lot at Ben Avery in Phoenix and seldom lost. He never ever did a full length resize. Lapua brass, N133 Powder, and Berger bullets.I am still not going to stop neck sizing.
Just to muddy the water a bit....
Most of the 'accuracy nuts' out there are not using standard full length sizing dies. They go to someone like Forster and have custom dies made to match their rifle chamber. They do not resize to SAAMI spec like you do if you have a standard reloading die.
So, that makes 4 choices here.
1. Standard full length resize.
2. Neck size only (bushings or collet).
3. Custom fit full length resize.
4. Custom fit full length resize with neck size bushing.
And there is a #5, the small base full length resize, if you have a stubborn semi or full auto rifle :)
That's kind of what I think but I hesitate to share my opinion because I am a green amateur compared to most here. So far I have just been neck sizing the 223 brass and it chambers well. The 243 brass seems to push the shoulder out much faster and after about 3 or four firings I try to full length resize but if I use the die according to instructions by the manufacturer it really puts the shoulder back I believe farther than necessary. I try what I guess you call bump sizing. One thing I noticed though, there can be a variation in the dimensions with the exact same setting on the die. I don't know if this is a difference in the hardness of the brass or what but that has been my experience.
Do yo have a SAAMI chamber or a custom Bisley or 1995 Palma? Sometimes the chamber dictates what type of die works best. Consistency will give you the best results for development of your process. Consistency in neck tension is a bigger step forward and the right tension is a big part of that. Whatever your process is get the best out of it. If that does not get you there, try something different and make that the best you can.
I have witnessed Erik Cortina's results on target and it is hard to not follow his methods when all top F class shooters do the same thing.... Down to the extreme accuracy of powder weight.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
"BINGO".....Give the Man a Cigar !!
I fall into category 3. I do most of my own dies favoring Lee's for bodies
and tweaks. And don't forget the staggered length shell holders for bumping.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
I like simple. I think Forster BR full-length and seater dies are more than good enough for me and I've had good luck controlling the shoulder bump with a little math and knowing how much to turn the die in to get the bump I want. I get straight ammo and I usually bump the shoulder .003".
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I gave up on neck sizing in about 1971. That's long before there was any internet for help. I found it gave me hard bolt close, hard bolt open and other issues. The next thing I did was to quit using the expander ball in my resizing dies. It was all trial and error in the old days.
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