How come I can't close thread?
I had a similar experience with my .223 Axis. However, I am not sure if it was the barrel or the receiver scope holes off. I suspect barrel for me as I think it was also shooting very low. I was too dumb to send it back. I put Burris Signature Zee rings on them and had to use the most extreme adjustments with the inserts. It shoots great though.
I really don't have an answer for you, other than maybe doing something like I did. I am assuming, there is no way to get your money back.
Sounds like the scope base/ring mounting holes on the barrel itself are messed up/out of alignment in some way.
How loose was the barrel in the receiver threads when you installed it? Do you have a 3 wire setup to measure the pitch diameter? Is the barrel obviously off center of the receiver? Had an aftermarket barrel one time that was cut too small and while it would thread, it became canted off to one direction when the nut was tightened down.
Don't have a 3 wire setup and the barrel does not appear to be off center.
I'm beginning to think this is the issue.Had an aftermarket barrel one time that was cut too small and while it would thread, it became canted off to one direction when the nut was tightened down.
Really a bummer when our plans are foiled.
Agreeing with celltech, loose threads will definitely "steer" a barrel off center. One easy check is to compare movement of both barrels with the barrelnut loose. With the reciever fixed measure the amount of side to side movement at the muzzle.
Obvious loose threads will be evident.
I did have one barrel with enough internal curvature that after cutting & crowning it would not zero. I indexed the curvature at 12:00 and ran the reamer in enough to re-headspace and then actually installed a scope with more internal adjustment. Just made zero but was fairly accurate and had the benefit of a 30moa rail with the windage at mechanical zero.
The Burris signature rings will most likely get you there also.
A precision nut & lug may also help if threads are loose.
Hope you find a solution.
That is what I will check next. It has to be that or curvature or both.loose threads will be evident.
Agree with you Bill it could be both.
It takes a good eye and certainly not my old eyes but looking through the bore may reveal something drastic with "curvature" or even a bend in the barrel. The sight picture will actually look like an oval when the light is just right.
Hope you get it figured out & it shoots great,
Randy
Just got in from another test. Put 22-250 barrel on another receiver. Same problem...did not hit target board at 25 yards so I moved to 15!
Barely caught the bottom edge...however the windage was correct....let' hear it for the WINDAGE! Yes!
Mark the barrel so next time you mount it the POI will be high. Then you don't need a 20MOA rail for the scope :)
Great advice from charlie b.
It truly might be a "curvature" issue, you may find acceptable headspace when it is high (12:00) by trying different bolt heads. If it however 180° off that is doubtful
That will leave deepening the chamber or the Burris Signature mounts. Having the windage right leaves the elevation ability to use its full travel. The Burris inserts can then get your zero leaving the most available within the scope.
If it were mine I would try the Burris first just to see if the barrel shoots.
Keep us posted, curious to see how it comes out.
I think the windage ended up being fairly accurate this time because the barrel was indexed differently on the "new" receiver....so that would indicate, to me anyway, that curvature is more of an issue. In other words, this time instead of being very low and very right it was very low only.
Lol.Did that make sense?
Where did you buy this barrel from? Pete's house of pry bars?
Makes sense to me. One other possibility may be the possible loose threads end up, or the condition of the lug, nut & reciever. If you are using a factory stamped recoil lug sometimes the thickness varies quite a bit. Most often thicker towards the bottom sometimes several thousandths. But on the sides also.Originally Posted by wbm
Too bad there is no one magic cure.
My guess being it was way off on both is curvature. Did you get a chance to compare the thread "wiggle" at the end of the barrel? It still could be that and when tight it will point to the path of least resistance against the thread. It is also possible and sharpshooter can answer this better that the threads themselves are not true with the bore. No real fix for that except indexing and chamber work. Probably not worth it at that point for a factory barrel.
Hope you get it where it needs to be.
Someone I trusted. Burn me once!Where did you buy this barrel from?
Nah. Tired of messing with it. Just going to write it off. I'll send it to you if you want to mess with it.Hope you get it where it needs to be.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I was wondering who would post that video first.....
Bill,
Fighting myself with a take-off now...hits the center of the target but not as often as I like it...lol....havent found a load it likes. Not loading for 22-250 would be the reason for not taking you up on the offer.
These factory take offs are a crap shoot. Although most of them are pretty good. The 6.5 Creed axis barrel I bought from you a couple years back was exceptional and shot great right out of the starting gate. My grandson shot an eight pointer with it in Wisconsin last year.
If it were mine as a last resort I would shorten it and recrown. It may just pull it out of the worst part of the curvature. It could also make it worse!....
Robin & celltech,
Maybe a good wack will fix wbm's barrel...just got to know where to hold the "trademark" or end up with a broken bat.
There is a fix......probably controversial, but it seems to work because they do it all the time at the factory. This is a detail that probably no one knows about, nor has been considered a viable fix even to the back yard gunsmith. The factory barrel threads can be on the small side just from production tolerance, along with receiver threads a little big, or a combination of stacked tolerance. A few of us here know what can happen when the thread fit is sloppy......the barrel will end up drooping with gravity when cinched up. I found this out by chucking up the receiver and checking runout at the end of the barrel. You would be shocked how much droop a sloppy fit will create, and on the other hand, you would be amazed how straight and consistent a proper fit is.
When I toured the plant back in 2005, I got to "build " my own rifle there.(Like that was a big deal to me.....) Anyway...after I installed the barrel, we turned around to a fixture with V blocks and an indicator. I asked, "What's this do?" The gal replied, "We're gonna check it for straightness." She laid the receiver in the V blocks, and rotated it with an indicator contacting the barrel about an inch from the muzzle. A full rotation moved the indicator needle .001". She went on to state that if it was more than .020", the barrel is "adjusted" to be closer. To demonstrate, the next barreled action was checked and adjusted with an arbor press. At this point I was totally confused, as I just witnessed a worker straighten a barrel as it came off the profiling lathe. " You mean to tell me, that after that guy just massaged that barrel straight, you're gonna bend it so it's straight with the action? Isn't that counter productive?" About that time, the lead man for barrel dept. jumped in and clarified things. He said, "No.....were not gonna bend the barrel, we're going to "slip the joint".
The barreled action was moved to the straightening fixture with the arbor press. There is a V block placed under the rear bridge, and one placed 4 inches ahead of the recoil lug. After it is rotated to find the high spot, the arbor press is used to press right on the thread joint. What this does is push the joint laterally, despite the tension on the nut. This is done until the muzzle is fairly concentric to the receiver, mostly to insure that the barrel sets straight in the stock.
The tighter the thread joint, the less lateral movement is encountered. A class 3 fit will insure that the barrel will draw up and center itself very consistently. The trouble with that is, although it was called out as a class 3 fit, it was hard to hold on old machinery of the time, so they found a cheap and dirty fix.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Interesting post, very informative.
Vietnam Vet, Jun 66 - Dec 67
Thanks for the post Fred!
Sorta the "perfect storm" of droop!The factory barrel threads can be on the small side just from production tolerance, along with receiver threads a little big, or a combination of stacked tolerance.
Ah Ha! I bet this is the original rifle that the 22-250 barrel I have came from. It is a Savage conspiracy no doubt.
https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...14-Barrel-bent
Thanks sharpshooter,
This certainly explains some of what all of us experience while playing "musical barrels"!
Question: Does "slipping the joint" physically displace or deform the threads themselves, in order to hold the new alignment? Or does it just reposition the barrel on the threads as gravity does on loose threads?
If it is just repositioning, then a properly fitting fixture (A good stock) could be used to set barrel straight before torquing.
More thoughts on this.
My action wrench is mounted on my bench so that the action is upside down when the barrel is headspaced & the nut is tightened. Pointing high on bore sighting has been common.
Thinking out loud.
I've pondered this, guess it could work in the event of sub-standard machining of the receiver face and barrel nut.
Thread fitment of barrel tenon to receiver is not critical- in fact, threads that are too tight are detrimental.
When I first started riflesmithing, I had conversations with those knowing far more than I to glean the "basics". Both "Daves" (Kiff, and Manson) agreed on this. The threads serve to bring the parts together- it's the critical shoulder surfaces (or the back side of the nut, on a nutted barrel) that bring the parts into correct alignment. These mating surfaces MUST be perfectly at 90 degrees to the centerline of the receiver. It's the clearance between the thread crests and roots of the parts that allows the shoulders to bring them into alignment.
If that is correctly done, any very minor "misalignment" due to thread tolerances will result in radial misalignment- which is virtually undetectable. The bore will still be in perfect axial alignment- meaning parallel to the centerline of the receiver, assuming of course that the barrel was correctly set-up when chambered. On a production rifle where the receiver face isn't trued, and the mating surface of the nut isn't perfectly square to the threads this "fix" could probably help.
Putting an action in an arbor press- with the pressure point inches ahead of the receiver face sounds like a sure way to tweak a receiver.
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