Reply With QuoteSome people take a 9mm or 40 cal pistol case and set it over the mouth and measure from base to base. After all it is a reference dimension.
This is not my picture.
I am going to Lincoln tomorrow and get one of those comparators it they have one. If they don't I might wait and get that and a few other things online unless with the China virus deal the shipping would be very slow. I thought I could do it another way but there are two problems with the way I am doing it. I know it is time to do more than neck size. On the case that gave trouble I won't even tell you what I came up with for a measurement. I don't see how it would be possible to get the dimension I did and will try it again with the comparitor. The other brass that was fired I think I am safe to say that my measurements would be a fairly close and it is definitely time to do a little more than neck size with the other brass. I believe the shoulder has been pushed out .006"-.0065". The bolt has more resistance too.
I despise the digital calipers. It is nearly impossible to get the same reading twice. About the only thing is get a half dozen readings and average them. I really need to get a 0-1", 0-3" micrometer and a 0-2" would be nice but I can probably get by with the two I mentioned.
I might take the gun to a local guy that is not a gunsmith by profession but is good. I am almost afraid to shoot again until someone looks it over.
Some people take a 9mm or 40 cal pistol case and set it over the mouth and measure from base to base. After all it is a reference dimension.
This is not my picture.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Squib load was mentioned, and I'm leaning towards that. Pics wouldOriginally Posted by Mr.Snerdly
go a long way in solving this. Still have that target ?? It's possible
that you sent a pill thru a stuck pill, and left some jacket material in
the bore. If that happened, I'd have the barrel scoped and checked
for loose spots......Really need to find that debris you pushed out !!
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
There is nothing wrong with digital calipers, unless it is defective.
I suggest You take Your rifle to “the local guy”, “that is good”JMO
First thing i would do is take the gun to a very well known (gunsmith), not just some wannabe, and have it repaired and thouraly checked out.
Next i would be reviewing my entire approach to loading, including an honest evaluation of my own ability, and what my goals are for shooting.
Despite what we read on the internet, the basic reloading dies sold by makers like RCBS and Lee are very good and capable of producing loads beyond the shooting ability of most of us with modern factory rifles. Who ever started the notion that accurate loads cant be created with full legnth resized cases should be exposed for what he is, an idiot. Read the manual that comes with the dies when you set them up and thats it.
Ive been loading since ive been 15, and im now 85. Ive never owned a comparator, and dont see the need to have one. Finding the OAL of the cartridge is as easy as closing the bolt on a partially seated bullet and adjust the die till you get the desired length.
What else is necessary for us to have than that?
I agree that a good set of calipers is nice to have, but fact is they dont have to be professional quality.
If we keep a dummy round of the load, and an empty case of the proper length, then it need only be used as a gauge to compare length.
Now if we want to become another cat chasing his tail with regard to even smaller than necessary groups, then we just dont skip over the basics and start at a higher level because of the way we go about loading ammo, like neck sizing only for example.
The old cliche of trying to create a silk purse from a sows ear still applies, and it no doubt always will.
My first thought was the obstruction in the barrel was a clump of partially burnt powder. I think it quite unlikely that parts of the ejector somehow managed to move forward past the case being ejected. Perhaps if you closed the bolt after ejecting the cartridge, but you don't mention that. Then there's the description of knocking it out of the barrel, indicating it was stuck there.
I'd start by removing the barreled action from the stock and inspect everything very carefully. I would also highly recommend that you purchase a borescope camera, or Teslong camera so you can inspect the inside of the barrel for any defects.
The blown primer may be an indication of a too long case, not trimmed properly to length and the neck was forced into the chamber throat thereby pinching the bullet. Saw a guy do this at the range with the same results you describe. First thing he did was toss the cartridge case which greatly reduced the ability to diagnose.
Running your cases through the action with the borescope camera in the throat allows you to see just how much room your trim methods leave for safety. A few thou extra for the wife and kids is never a bad thing.
Any possibility that the trigger work you did left something out or amiss? Don't mean to accuse, just trying to think of all the possibilities.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
Yobuck is a wise man and has been doing this for more years than most. The reality is that there would be indicators involved in this situation that someone with experience would have easily identified. We are left without those items as they are not available to us. For any new hobby there is a learning curve and often help is needed to get over that curve. I would take a look at the bold print above and consider that there may be more to it than just threading some dies down on the press, sizing, fill and pill. Get some in person assistance from a knowledgeable person.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
In fairness there is a much better opportunity to shorten the learning curve today, than when i began loading or learning anything else for that matter.
And that could in fact also include various tools available today that didnt exist at that time also.
But loading ammo in and of itself isnt going to shorten any curve, regardless as to how we go about doing it.
+1Get some in personal assistance from a knowledgeable person.
You have given some good ideas. I know the case wasn't too long. I checked it before reloading and also after the mishap. It was under the maximum length both times. I am sure it was not parts of the ejector pin. I didn't close the bolt after the incident. I am wondering if maybe the piece could be in the rifle yet. I looked as carefully as I could on the floor and I wonder maybe if it could have dropped into the magazine and be in the bottom part of the magazine.
On the digital calipers, I wonder if there might be something wrong with mine. A lot of times when I put it back to zero it will show-.0005" even though I always zero it each time before measuring. A few times it will say-.0010". Not usually but sometimes. I wonder if it might be be off .0005" sometimes and that is why I come up with inconsistent readings. I just have never trusted digital things too much. The digital powder scale included in the reloading kit is horribly inaccurate. I realize you can't expect much for the price you buy the whole kit for but I think they should just not even include it if it is so inaccurate. I use the beam scale to measure powder.
.0005"-.001" is nothing to get worked up about.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I have a set of Mitoyo or similar sounding name manual calipers. Probably had them over 20 years, and they werent all that expensive.
They can be fine tune set on zero before using them, and also locked at any measurement for things like checking case length.
But if you keep an old case, even one with a split neck trimmed to the proper length, thats all you really need. And that case also makes it easy to adjust the case trimmer length also. You could probably find a suitable set of calipers for all your loading needs at Harbor Freight.
As for precise powder charges, we could have a long heated debate over that also.
But just to satisfy your own curiosity on that issue, load 3 rounds with a charge weight like say 25 grains for this discussion example.
Then load 3 more with 1/4 of a grain increase. Then 3 more with a 1/2 grain increase.
Shoot the first 3 into a target, disregarding where the group is with regard to where your aiming point was.
Then use the exact same aiming point, and shoot the second 3 shots and the third 3 shots and see where all 9 shots landed.
Then have a big discussion with yourself over the importance of precise weighing of charges to the 1/10th of a grain.
^^^^Another option would be some used micrometers. They aren't terribly expensive if you can find them used and I am much more comfortable using a micrometer.
Maybe this isn't as precision as I have been led to believe. A guy can overdo it either way I guess.
You mean me trying to keep everything within .04 grains is overkill? You're a one shot one kill guy with big cases(100gr h2o). When you drop that case down around 50gr h2o or less, things get a little more sensitive with 20 shot strings looking for 1/2 moa. Don't make me come up there next deer season!Then have a big discussion with yourself over the importance of precise weighing of charges to the 1/10th of a grain.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Difference is your goal, and every other competition shooters goal is to win the match they are competing in. Those who claim otherwise are lying. lol
Therefore you will be apt to grab every straw that floats downstream if you think it will help in your quest for better accuracy.
Even more so if shooter Joe has it or is doing it and Joe usually outshoots you. Never mind that the difference could simply be Joe.
Hunters on the other hand at least as a general rule, have a more undisciplined mindset about them as for perfection, that includes (most) l/r hunters.
At least the ones who are somewhat consistently successful. Not that accuracy dosent matter, just that it dosent matter as much. One bad shot, maybe even caused by an unseen tree branch, dosent necessarily mean you lost the match. And does it really matter what caused the miss?
What really matters is what happens next, and that requires a hunters mindset.
Trivia question.
You have been glassing a side hill across the valley from where you sit all day.
At 4pm as you are about to quit for the day since it will be getting dark very soon, a really nice buck comes over the top of the ridge.
But he proceeds to lay down behind a couple very large trees giving you no shot.
So, will you be coming back to this very spot tomorrow?
Yep, we are all looking for something a little different :)
Hunting? What's that? :)
Would I come back to the same spot? Depends. :) I might look for someplace on the other side of that ridge, but, careful not to be near one of the well used trails. Or was the other side of the ridge steep enough to make recovering the deer not so easy? Or was it a cloudy day instead of a sunny day (or vice versa)? Sometimes they will take their siestas in the same places and sometimes not, so he may decide to lie down on the other side next day.
If it was elk I would not bother. They go different places almost every time (unless you found a good water hole).
Don't the cases last longer if you full length resize no more than necessary? That is probably one reason I was doing it initially, plus I didn't have the press set up yet.
They last just as long when full length sizing. Neck sizing really does not do much special. You'd have to be a much better shot than I am to be able to tell a difference. FWIW, failure usually occurs in the neck anyway. So the brass is worked just as much either way.
I only neck size, but, it's just cause I am lazy. I use the Lee collet dies so no lube needed. And I never get a case stuck in the die cause I forgot to lube it :) I only fire the cartridges in one rifle so neck only works fine.
Doesn't the shoulder get pushed out if all you do is neck size? It seems to my limited experience it does. It also seems some calibers are worse than others. The 223 maybe has been loaded 1 time less than the 243 but I can't measure hardy any difference and the 243 was .009" on a few. I think all of them were at least .0065" and most were more than that. It was getting to where the bolt was hard to close and open. I am still waiting on a full length die for the 243 and today I got a notice it hasn't even been shipped yet. The China virus has really messed things up.
.009" growth at the shoulder. Somebody does not know how to set up their die.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
No, the shoulders on mine don't move at all when just neck sizing. That's the nice thing about shooting all the cases in one rifle (and I don't shoot max loads).
If you full length size set them up so you either bump the shoulder slightly or you just touch the shoulder. When I used to full length size I would set mine to just touch the shoulder of a fired case.
Charlieb, I got that and you are right. I was looking at Mr.snerdly's comment. If you notice, I quoted his post where he said that some of his 243 grew .009" at the shoulder. I could have missed something though. I would expect a 1st firing to move a little if the headspace was set at max. >009" is out of that realm and this leads me to believe he had a case head separation and that was what he saw in his barrel. Not sure but one other poster may have said something like this already.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
^^I do think something is wrong with that brass. I heard Winchester had some problems with their brass years ago and this ammo was old so it might be some that did. This brass also had 3 split necks after the first firing. I haven't had the 22-250 brass grow that much either. I don't have full length resizing dies for the 243 and 223 yet. I don't know when they will be here with the mess in shipping. Normally they would have been here by now.
Brother, you need to address the .009" shoulder length growth.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Ive had neck splits on new but old brass that had been sitting around in the original box for a number of years.
Ive also had ammo given to me that had been loaded by people i had known and was never fired, new brass.
I pulled the bullets and dump the powder and throw both away. Next day all the cases are neck split.
Especially if you plan on using the ammo for hunting, by all means full length resize it.
Take no chances on an empty hanging up in the chamber.
Just follow the directions that comes with the dies when setting them up.
There is one other thing that could have taken place with the incident, and it has happened to me.
Old ammo, meaning reloaded ammo that has been sitting around for a period of time, maybe several years.
There is a thing that can take place called ( case welding ).
What happens is that over time the case attaches itself to the bullet, thereby causing excessive pressure when it’s fired.
How much pressure depends on how much welding has taken place.
The way to check for it is to put one of the loaded cartridges in your press and run it up into the seating die after you have turned the seating depth in a turn or so. In other words we want to push the bullet further into the case.
When you do that be very carefull about listening for a snap sound, sorta like a stick snapping.
IF you have that situation, there is your answer to your problem.
You can correct it by being aware that it can happen, and check all old reloaded ammo before firing it by seating the bullets slightly deeper.
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