Cleaning/Accuracy

[hunterdan]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, Im new to the sight. I had a question for you experienced savage shooters. My 3 savage rifles with factory barrels I have noticed that accuracy/ groups start to open up around 30 Rounds.

All 3 shoot very good groups but once I get around 30 Rds I start getting flyers and groups open up. Once I clean the barrel then accuracy returns.

Just wondering as some of my other rifles I can go a little longer between cleanings but I thought maybe with savage barrels being button barrels had something to do with this.

Thanks for any feedback.

[Newtosavage]

How much time between the 30 rounds? All in the same session, or over a number of trips?

I don't clean my barrels very often anymore. I do the "normal" break-in with 20 rounds (cleaning after every shot for 5, then after every 2 for 10, then after the last 5). After that, I typically shoot 200-300 rounds between cleaning. Honestly, my barrels seem to shoot better when they are good and dirty.

Have you tried going 100+ rounds without cleaning to see what you get?

[hunterdan]

How much time between the 30 rounds? All in the same session, or over a number of trips?

I don't clean my barrels very often anymore. I do the "normal" break-in with 20 rounds (cleaning after every shot for 5, then after every 2 for 10, then after the last 5). After that, I typically shoot 200-300 rounds between cleaning. Honestly, my barrels seem to shoot better when they are good and dirty.

Have you tried going 100+ rounds without cleaning to see what you get?

This is usually a couple range sessions. I make sure to let the barrel cool down between 3-shot groups. I did do the proper break in schedule also. I really noticed it on a Savage predator 22-250. Will shoot very tight .3-.5 groups then around 35 are so shots after a couple range sessions group opened up around a inch. Once I gave it a good clean it right back to .3 groups. Thanks for the info!

[CFJunkie]

Hmm, that is not what I am experiencing.

I have about 8 Savage rifles and when I take one to the range, I shoot between 75 and 100 rounds with the rifles I brought.
I only notice a drop in POI after a rifle barrel heats up to over 113 to 122 degrees F..
I have LCD temperature strips mounted on each barrel so I can keep track of temperature.
As long as I keep the barrel within 86 to 110 degrees F, most of my Savages are tack drivers.

On hot summer days, temperatures rise pretty quickly so I get to shoot only 5 or 6 shots before I have to let the barrels cool.
I switch to a different rifle while I let a barrel cooling fan get the temperature down.
On cold winter mornings with temperatures in the low to mid 20s, I can shoot 15 to 25 shots before the barrel gets too hot depending upon how cold it starts.
Of course, once the barrel cools down below 86 degrees, I start up again and find that I get more like 12 shots before I have to stop again.

When the barrels heat up past 110 to 113, I find the POI on my most accurate rifles drop about 1/4 inch but the accuracy remains.
I haven't noticed a growth in average group size, only a shift in POI.

I clean and decopper the barrels after every range session.

[charlie b]

Depends on the barrel. My Axis HB in .223 can shoot at least 100rnds before it needs cleaning (it also has more than 1000rnds through it). I let it go 200rnds one time and notice a small difference in the group sizes. The .308 BVSS needs cleaning after every 50 (less than 500rnds through it).

Just one of those luck of the draw things with factory barrels.

[azguy]

This is a subject close to my interest. I am a retired mechanical engineer my main expertise was maintenance and machinery failure.
There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

I personally am a super clean barrel freak and find that my barrels shoot more accurate clean.

I have a feeling that the dirty barrel accuracy is very true but caused by several factors. Including method of barrel breakin, cleaning style, . Bullet type and brand used. I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

[hunterdan]

This is a subject close to my interest. I am a retired mechanical engineer my main expertise was maintenance and machinery failure.
There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

I personally am a super clean barrel freak and find that my barrels shoot more accurate clean.

I have a feeling that the dirty barrel accuracy is very true but caused by several factors. Including method of barrel breakin, cleaning style, . Bullet type and brand used. I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

Thx AZguy and others for the replys. I am constantly learning!
Answer to your question for me is I did the shoot one clean for first 10 rds. Cleaned after 3 shots for next 3-4 groups and then just started shooting.

[LoneWolf]

"Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance."

What barrel manufacturer states this? If this were true I'd have to clean my barrel 7 times during a 2 day match... I normally go 400-600rds between cleanings and alternate between carbon solvent and a light copper solvent. I never clean my barrel to the metal.

Secondly, It's impossible to bore a barrel "dead straight" and center over the entire length of a barrel. There is always a slight curve in the bore. Same with the rifling. The point of the break in cycle is to layer copper into the rifling. The reason you clean every few rounds is to have clean copper and not layers of carbon and copper mixed. Barrels in most cases shoot best when dirty because the bore is tighter. I've had barrels that i didn't do any more than pull a bore snake through every couple hundred rounds and always shot great. Over cleaning just wears barrels out faster.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

After cleaning with Carbon Solvent my barrels tighten back up in 10-15 rounds. After a light copper solvent cleaning they take 15-20 rounds. They both tighten up to original groups and come back to zero.

To the OP, are you shooting factory ammo or reloads? I would guess it's the ammo that likes what your barrel does when it's clean. If it's factory then try a different type of ammo to see if it shoots better. If they are reloads then do load dev on a fouled barrel and tune it in right.

[darkker]

There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate.

I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

Except Gale McMillan, who specifically and vocally claims it's a barrel maker invention to sell more barrels... To the perfectly straight part, you haven't been to Savage, or watched the video that used to be here, where Savage bends them the opposite direction of a bow; to straighten them.

I clean when accuracy falls off, each rifle is different. Best is in the 200 round range, one POS it's about the 40 round mark.
I don't "break-in" barrels. This gorilla with a nylon brush with some overpriced cleaning concoction isn't going to be doing anything for Smoothing out burrs, compared to a copper swage at high velocity, being pushed by 60,000psi, followed closely by plasma, and the sandblasting of powder tumbling down the bore.

But if it makes you feel better about things, clean away.