Never truer Words Have Been Spoken

[scope eye]

Dean

[RC20]

I can't say I viewed Pearl Harbor as a game.

I would retitle it to the affect, You reap what you sow.

My dad was on a Gun Boat off Okinawa when it ended, the gunboats were some of he highest casualty takers percentage wise (if not the highest) after the infantry.

I would have leveled the entire country rather than see it invaded or started them out. Japan deserved no sympathy and the on going part about being a Victim has gone on too long.

[EFBell]

The atrocities that the Japanese committed against the Chinese and others, our POW's among them easily rival those of the Nazi's. They reaped what they sowed alright. No sympathy deserved. In fact many might say they got off too easy in the end.

[godale]

The atrocities that the Japanese committed against the Chinese and others, our POW's among them easily rival those of the Nazi's. They reaped what they sowed alright. No sympathy deserved. In fact many might say they got off too easy in the end.

i cant disagree with you. i am tired of us on tv once a year being in applogy mode

[yobuck]

Reaping what one sows, can be looked upon and discussed from many angles.
Peace thru strength, might have been a better option than what we gained as a result of winning?

[psharon97]

I love how liberal whine about nuking Japan was the worst thing we did to them. Not firebombing their cities which had a much higher casualty rate, not wrecking their entire industry, nope it's dropping 2 bombs.

[EFBell]

Can't recall, what party was in charge when this took place?

[scope eye]

No disrespect intended, it is just a metaphor so the younger generation can make an attempt to grasp it.

Dean

[JASmith]

Can't recall, what party was in charge when this took place?

The party of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

The one that sent us on the path to redefining the term charity as 'entitlements' ...

Do you need any more hints?

[JASmith]

No disrespect intended, it is just a metaphor so the younger generation can make an attempt to grasp it.

Dean

I was born a few months after World War II ended and got the point.

BTW A lot of war strategy uses game theory. In fact, the game of chess was used for a long time to help encourage Kings to think ahead.

Second, If I recall some of the things learned post war correctly, Yamamoto advised against taking on America. That definitely puts the attack into the "Stupid Gambit" category.

[scope eye]

Roosevelt also left Americas sweetheart, Amelia Earhart to die in a Japanese prison on Saipan.

Dean

[yobuck]

I believe Scope Eye and the moderator were having a little fun as a devils advocate.
But the point about FDR is certainly a valid one.
Beside that, I'm no doubt the only one here who remembers Pearl Harbor, and actually hearing FDRs famous day of infamy speech.
I was 6 years old when the war began. I also remember carrying flattened tin cans and baseball size balls of tin foil to school to which we walked.
Everything from sugar to gasoline was rationed.
And it was give em hell Harry who ordered the bombs dropped.
I guess the question will always remain as to wether FDR would have done that.

[RC20]

As someone with history interests, and particularly war, I would like to correct a few things.

Love of country is not a liberal or a conservative value, its not black or white or Native American, its an American value. I do not define myself in either camp, I share values from both sides of the spectrum and there was an article in the paper this morning that made clear to me that I need to be clear on that.

Prior to WWII the US was just barely recovering from the worst crash in US history (that should be familiar to all of us)

Roosevelt could no more have advanced the US into the kind of military power that would have deterred Japan than I can kick the moon out of orbit.

There was no political will in the US, the citizens did not care nor did they want to be involved in foreign affairs.

while that is understandable , the reality is we are always subject to what goes on in the world (we are affected by what Russia and China do)

So I will bluntly say, because FDR was a Democrat had nothing to do with what occurred.

He was failed by the people who should have been paying attention. The two Pearl Harbor commanders did not take the intelligence they were getting seriously.
They were on peace duty footing.

There were communicatiosn fialures involved (partly due to the peace footing)

I will remind people that 9/11 occurred under GWB. I can make a valid argument that it was his failed policy that North Korea was the most dangerous adversary due to nuclear missiles (of which they have not achieved the capability to this day though I know they are working at it)

Partly this too was the US being asleep at the wheel. Partly let down was not making airlines secure the cockpit doors with armored ones. That alone could have stopped 9/11 in its tracks.

And I can argue it might not have as the pilots would have to have known that suicide fanatics would do that vs the old school of Hi jack, make a big scene on a runways someplace.

Arguably also for GWB is that between the time they took office and the attack occurred even if focused on that threat, the mechanism to counter it might not have been in place.

Again, while we may disagree on how to go about our democracy, I would hope that none question the love the United State regardless of party (or none) religion, ethnicity.

Severe mistakes have been made by both parties, it is a mistake to question their patriotism.

[mike21]

..........I was 6 years old when the war began......

Not that it matters, but you might want to visit your profile and update your birthday.

[EFBell]

"Again, while we may disagree on how to go about our democracy" Lets remember that this great nation is in fact a Republic, not a democracy.

I'm not one that buys into the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory by the way.

[WV1951]

No disrespect intended, it is just a metaphor so the younger generation can make an attempt to grasp it.

Dean

I don't even know if it taught any more in schools. History has been so dumbed down the last several years, that many of our younger generation don't have a clue of this country's history. The politically correct crowd has ruined it. I have seen a number of college graduates interviewed "on the street" or on campus and do not know who we battled for independence or who won the War Between the States. US history has been lost on many young people.

[RC20]

I use the term democracy as we are not discussing elections and representatives .

I never did buy any conspiracy theory.

The Philippines command also screwed up that day mightily.

When they got the word all aircraft took off, then they landed when nothing happened and parked the planes in a nice line again.

Japanese were delayed in their strike form Formosa, hit them all lined up. A second Pearl Harbor except it was aircraft.

Any single astute and non peace time commander at either place could have contained the damage.

We can thank the powers that be the Carriers were out of Pearl Harbor and did not tangle with the Japanese either.
They needed seasoning to be capable of taking them on.

I do want to note I use the term Japanese. That is out of courtesy to those of Japanese decent that had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, many of those Japanese American sons went onto fight in the Pacific performing not only well but providing language skills sorely needed and more so allowed full combat in Europe (where they were not only trusted but provided a combat record that stands in the annals to this day.)

What was done to the American Citizens that were of Japanese decent was and continue to be appalling and a lesson that needs to be heeded in this day and age.

[EFBell]

WWII is a fascinating subject, I have been reading about since I was quite young and still do to this day. The most interesting area for me is the air war.
Although, I never could quite understand just what the Japanese where thinking.

[JASmith]

...Although, I never could quite understand just what the Japanese where thinking.

As I understand things, the main factors influencing their thinking were:

1) They had been auccessfully waging a war of conquest against the Chinese and the effort had produced an excellent army

2) Their naval aviation assets, especially pilots, were at the top of the heap in terms of skills and capabilities

3) Most importantly, the US was slowly awakening to the threat and had started to impose trade sanctions. The Japanese viewed that allowing that process to develop to the extent that the US could initiate armed hostilities at a time of our choosing was a sure path to disaster.

4) Complicating this, we signalled disinterest in the Pacific and far East by doing little or nothing to upgrade facilities, equipment, and training.

Hence they felt that a punch in the nose would cause this blustery paper tiger bully to back down.

In other words, some could argue that we invited the attack by not matching our capabilites with our rhetoric. We were saved then by the vast reaches pf the pacific and Atlantic oceons. Those distances bought us the time we needed to build our forces while a lot of good people died or were placed in slavery and worse.

Improvements in transportation and weapons delivery in today's world eliminate much of that buffer...

Bottom line, the OP is an accurate statement that carries a huge volume of underlying truths.

[yobuck]

Not that it matters, but you might want to visit your profile and update your birthday.

Well ive mentioned before that I was originaly refused membership here because of my age.
So I reapplied and lied about it. lol

As for the apathy that prevailed in the U S following ww1, that is correct.
But the fact still remains, that leaders are selected to lead and recognize potential danger to the country.
There was no doubt as to the very aggressive nature of Japan toward its neibors long before their bombing of Pearl Harbor.
There was also no doubt as to Hitlers intentions, starting in 1939 with the invasion of Poland.
We were in fact involved in a deep depression in this country, as was the rest of the world.
But when our back was shoved to the wall, we somehow found a way to get busy and dig our way out.
So I think it fair to ask if the threat were addressed earlier, would we have saved the lives of thousands of innocent people?
As for the on the ground commanders in Hawaii when the attack took place, they were simply the fall guys who took the heat for the failures in Washington.
We could debate political decisions as they pertain to military strategy for a very long time.
We had to wait for an arrogant French nobody, hiding out in London to lead (OUR) troops into Paris for example.
We also had to pull back and let the Russians have the grand prize of Berlin.
What did we get back, and how many paid with their lives for that decision?
Fact is weve had very few very good leaders in this country since it's inception.
Weve been lucky mainly because weve been the only real super power in the world.
Make America (GREAT AGAIN), is exactly what is needed at this point in time.
Especially since weve elected 3 losers in a row, and 4 out of the last 5.
Wether the person we recently elected is the real deal, remains to be seen and only time will tell.
But for sure he isn't worried about poll numbers and becoming wealthy.
And he is surrounding himself with warriors, and not just nice guys the opposition might approve of.

[EFBell]

"Wether the person we recently elected is the real deal, remains to be seen and only time will tell.
But for sure he isn't worried about poll numbers and becoming wealthy.
And he is surrounding himself with warriors, and not just nice guys the opposition might approve of."

Amen to that!

[Texas10]

WWII is a fascinating subject, I have been reading about since I was quite young and still do to this day. The most interesting area for me is the air war.
Although, I never could quite understand just what the Japanese where thinking.

I think it is important to point out that it was not the Japanese people who initiated the war with the US. It was a small handful of Japanese War Lords seeking monetary profits and a political system that placed too much power in the hands of those few people.

Kinda like our system of Government, no?

[EFBell]

I think it is important to point out that it was not the Japanese people who initiated the war with the US. It was a small handful of Japanese War Lords seeking monetary profits and a political system that placed too much power in the hands of those few people.

Kinda like our system of Government, no?

Sure, that goes without saying.

[yobuck]

I think it is important to point out that it was not the Japanese people who initiated the war with the US. It was a small handful of Japanese War Lords seeking monetary profits and a political system that placed too much power in the hands of those few people.

Kinda like our system of Government, no?

I guess my question would be, did the Japanese people have any power to change anything?
I would seem we do, and we just did.
We won the one with them also, and then we rebuilt it for them and gave it all back.
I doubt their government would have done that.

[Robinhood]

My hope is that we were not given the other side of the same coin. A lot of Bilderberg's in the new cabinet