New 6.5 ocw results

[doctnj]

buck I think you make a good point on your last post. Well both of them of course but the last one was in the back of my mind to keep both formulas and depending on what is being called for, Ill just pull out one or the other. I plan on running them both to distance and working up a drop sheet for each.

Im still a little perplexed by the 260 but that is, at least I think so, purely lack of trigger experience. Man that one has an entirely different feel and Ive only had two outings with it. I should never have mixed it back and fourth with a different trigger. My new 6.5 being built will also have a jewel so taking both of them to the range wont be near the problem. I also plan on switching out the trigger on my lapua to the SSS trigger later this spring after I get a scope that works and get a load dialed in with the trigger Im used to, then Ill just have to get behind it and shoot my but off. When I finally get good loads for these guns Ill make a trip up to Missouri and ring some long range steel.

[DanSavage]

I think you have a very nice laser doc! And you are able to shoot real well too. When testing loads, try to print your group off to the side of your aiming point so you are always aiming at the exact same spot. You also may need to make the orange aiming pasties a little smaller, it may help for a smaller group, but I think it's safe to say you have a couple one hole loads. Tony Boyer and other benchrest shooter's talk about finding the node that prints to the higher POI. They are supposed to be the more forgiving load.

Nice shooting!

[doctnj]

Here's a question. During my load development, I shoot off bags. Proper or not, I think target shows it may work; I am very gentle on the rifle. What I mean by that is I don't grip it and rip it. My cheek weld is solid but light, its in my shoulder but not pushed hard, my trigger hand is just riding the grip and my thump is on the palm side. Now to my point. This kind of style mitigates muscle intervention to allow the rifle to "do its thing". Except I loose target picture almost every time even though my follow through is as good as possible given the light interaction.

So after load development. What are your techniques for maintaining sight picture and seeing your shots.......?

[doctnj]

Here is a link to a video of my technique when NOT working on load development. I recover fairly quickly but do not see my hits. That said Im shooting at short distances i.e. <300yrds in the vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vHEWEKREWM

[LongRange]

Here's a question. During my load development, I shoot off bags. Proper or not, I think target shows it may work; I am very gentle on the rifle. What I mean by that is I don't grip it and rip it. My cheek weld is solid but light, its in my shoulder but not pushed hard, my trigger hand is just riding the grip and my thump is on the palm side. Now to my point. This kind of style mitigates muscle intervention to allow the rifle to "do its thing". Except I loose target picture almost every time even though my follow through is as good as possible given the light interaction.

So after load development. What are your techniques for maintaining sight picture and seeing your shots.......?

this all depends on how your going to shoot...

[doctnj]

Sure I get that. Its more of a "how do you manage recoil" in general question. In the military, just basic trigger control, its instructed that proper technique is holding the handle really firm and pulling into the shoulder. All of this is pretty hard forces but its also open sights and 2 to 3 moa in rapid fire is acceptable. Im talking bug hole attempts, prone with bipod and rear bag for example. I hear everyone talk about seeing your hits and for the most part I never see my hits because my sight picture jumps out of alignment.

Is it a process of targets further away you have time to get realigned and see the hits or should I start pulling in harder to my shoulder again? Or let the rifle do its thing and just stay on the cheek weld harder? I mean there has got to be something in your experience that you started doing and then started to see your hits no?

[hafejd30]

Depends on what power your scope is set at, and the distance to target. Easier to hold with scope set on 10 power then at 32. Bigger field of view even tho the rifle is shifting the same way on either setting. I have a JEC brake on my 260. Can spot hits at 300 easily. Can't remember what it does at 100 yds. Don't shoot that distance much except to zero the rifle

[LongRange]

Sure I get that. Its more of a "how do you manage recoil" in general question. In the military, just basic trigger control, its instructed that proper technique is holding the handle really firm and pulling into the shoulder. All of this is pretty hard forces but its also open sights and 2 to 3 moa in rapid fire is acceptable. Im talking bug hole attempts, prone with bipod and rear bag for example. I hear everyone talk about seeing your hits and for the most part I never see my hits because my sight picture jumps out of alignment.

Is it a process of targets further away you have time to get realigned and see the hits or should I start pulling in harder to my shoulder again? Or let the rifle do its thing and just stay on the cheek weld harder? I mean there has got to be something in your experience that you started doing and then started to see your hits no?

if your prone you need to lean into your bipod a little...if your rifle continues to jump it may also be your muzzle break...my factory 110BA break jumped up and left every time...do you blink when the rifle fires? do you shoot with both eyes open? those are two things i worked on for a long time and just recently got a handle on.

just as a test try setting your rifle dead level on the bipod and a rear bag SIT behind it with you free hand resting lightly on the top of the butt of the stock fire a round and watch the muzzle to see if its jumping bad...both my 260s move straight back and the bipod dont leave the ground.

[DanSavage]

Doc.. I can only see my impacts at long range like 1000 yards,, as the bullet is flying to the target I slide my rifle forward back into battery and watch the target closely. I have been able to shoot at deer at 450 and out with a .308 and get back on the deer just before the bullet smack's them.

[hafejd30]

if your prone you need to lean into your bipod a little...if your rifle continues to jump it may also be your muzzle break...my factory 110BA break jumped up and left every time...do you blink when the rifle fires? do you shoot with both eyes open? those are two things i worked on for a long time and just recently got a handle on.

just as a test try setting your rifle dead level on the bipod and a rear bag SIT behind it with you free hand resting lightly on the top of the butt of the stock fire a round and watch the muzzle to see if its jumping bad...both my 260s move straight back and the bipod dont leave the ground.

My 260 is the same way. A well made brake should easily tame 260 recoil/muzzle jump.

[yobuck]

Bipods are a great invention and can make a world of difference for people who arent really good prone shooters.
But from a bench they leave alot to be desired in my opinion. If i were serious about group shooting, id be watching
the serious group shooters. Namly the varmit class benchresters. Stock design as to how well it slides straight back i believe is criticle.

[upSLIDEdown]

All my shooting is done from a bipod and rear bag. A good brake will keep you on target. I load the bipod forward to keep rifle movement to a minimum and don't have problems coming off target. I also think load dev should be done the way you plan to shoot it, but that's just me.

[doctnj]

You very well may be right as rain there Slide. Dont know about the 260 just yet, still forming an opinion. It does seem to be the closest to staying on target. But again my conditions are not what they will be when shooting competitions. I will be backing off the power of the scope and just getting good 1 to 1.5 moa groups and load the rifle and see if it stays on target better. But I need to take it out by itself to get used to that super light crisp trigger pull. I kept finding myself wanting to rest my finger on the trigger to "set the blade" and the shot is gone. Luckily I dont put my finger on the trigger till the cross hairs are on target or that last time at the range would have been worthless. Im swapping out the trigger on my 338 to the SSS trigger next. In fact going to order it later today. Just wont have a scope for it till March. I can see where with such a light break, it would be tempting to slap the trigger. I was dry firing it and the trigger pull's effects on the rifles position is the most negligible Ive ever seen. Going out with two or even three different trigger pulls drives me crazy. I think over the years Ive gotten fairly well adapted to the blade style two stage but still the breaking point is different between savages. So time for a change. Im getting long winded I better stop for now. too much coffee lol

[LongRange]

one of the biggest things is getting your rifle set up...if your in anyway not comfortable behind the rifle in a comfortable prone position you need to adjust things and once adjusted youll need to check on barricades kneeling standing and what ever other positions you plan to shoot from.
some other tips are to REALLY pay attention when shooting to your body movement and things you may be doing that will cause the rifle to move...set up a video camera and take vids of you shooting from different angles and then watch them at home over and over looking for anything odd....get close ups of your trigger finger to see if your jerking the trigger and to see if your pull is consistent...also a close up of your face while shooting and watch for blinking and or flenching when the rifle fires...this helped me a lot because i could see the things i didnt notice and correct them...one bad habit that i still catch myself doing every now and then is rolling my shoulder into the butt which causes me fliers to the left every time i do it.

[yobuck]

All my shooting is done from a bipod and rear bag. A good brake will keep you on target. I load the bipod forward to keep rifle movement to a minimum and don't have problems coming off target. I also think load dev should be done the way you plan to shoot it, but that's just me.

Ive heard others say they confirm (zero) with the way they shoot, meaning the bipod.
But ive not heard anybody say they do load workup from a bipod.
I suppose theres no reason a wood strip couldnt be fastened to a bench, so that loading the bipod could be done there also.
Possibly a dense rubber mat under it would help muffle the vibration from the bench also.

[doctnj]

As far as load work up the way I shoot. And this is just a theory. I would almost think that taking as much interaction out as possible would be better to find the absolute most accurate round based on the performance of that round and your rifle. i.e. removing as much human error as possible. Just for argument sake I think if my buddy is a much better shot I could even let him evaluate my loads with my rifle. Then after finding the most accurate / best load set up for the rifle I would learn to shoot it. Hence forth I would know that if its off it aint the bullet. lol. I get this idea from that little study in Houston. That has been, for quite some time now, the reason I test the way I test. I honestly try to have as little human interaction with the rifle as possible and shoot. Later when I start getting off I know Im throwing in some over gripping, muscle fighting, bad breath control etc.....
Then Ill shoot it from any position. Again just my thoughts.

Ive only been reloading for a short time but it has basically been how I would check out new ammo I had never shot before as well.

[yobuck]

Well actualy there are 3 things involved. The load is what your currently concentrating on and the reason for your comment.
But theres also the gun.
Most of us are satisfied with working up loads we can shoot in our own guns with results satisfactory to us for our intended purpose.
Arguments will always take place over what should be satisfactory.
For me thats one thing, for somebody else another thing.
I think you need to ask yourself what goal your striving for, then take the shortest way to get there.
That might be talking to somebody like Fred about a gun with the load it likes. Then learn to shoot it.
Two of the roadblocks to your goal are already removed. But theres still a roadblock. lol

[upSLIDEdown]

All the talk about triggers reminded of a video Frank from the Hide put up recently. Might help give you a different point of view on triggers and trigger pull weight. I liked the video, personally. Some people might argue with it though, as far as weight. Doing load development and not trying to put any input into the rifle is great as long as the gun is being held tight in a rest, or something similar. If the gun is recoiling and moving a lot, I feel like that's not really doing you any good, because the time it takes the bullet to exit the barrel matters, and if the gun is moving a lot during that split second, it can start to throw shots that might have otherwise been good shots.

Here's the trigger vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2DnEGH23tA

[doctnj]

I watched that video several times when it first came out. Its hard to miss when they get set on auto play when you open the friggin website. lol. But a lot of good points there. I have been totally concentrating on follow through on every shot. I know for a fact that when a shot is off, the whole process felt different. I think Im going to love the jewel trigger but have to get in the grove with it. Ive done a lot more dry fire with it and I can make it break when I want it to and not before so I don't think its too light. Im changing my 338 trigger out with the sss competition trigger to make it a bit more like the jewel. That trigger was uncomfortably heavy well it was for sure after I got ruined with a good one.

[LongRange]

good video USD.

[yobuck]

Ive had both SS triggers and Jewell, and ill take the SS.
Ill take a well tuned 700 trigger over a Jewell on a hunting gun.
They work well when they work, but keep them squeaky clean and dry.

[doctnj]

I think in general most gun companies could benefit by having a better trigger from the beginning. I own a browning 25-06 with a factory trigger and it is almost in line with the jewel trigger. It is by far the most superior single stage factory trigger on a rifle that ive ever felt. I own a pile of handguns and most every one except 2 have had to either have a complete trigger job or replacement all together. It seems that most factory triggers are long heavy and gritty. I imagine the long and heavy is law suite avoidance. A good example is Remington's old trigger with inferior safety release that killed or injured hundreds of people. I know the semi auto needs to be a bit heavy to prevent full auto but Im talking they are getting ridiculously bad triggers these days.

[doctnj]

Now back on topic of the thread. After giving it some thought. Even though the 41.5 (area) seems quite accurate, Im well below even book max velocity by nearly 100 fps. I also would be 250 to 300 fps below what others seem to push there rounds at. So it may very well be just and information gathering effort, but I will explore the upper end of the velocity chart this weekend.

My theory is that I will indeed find a much faster node that is accurate. And once again, like the creedmoor, have at my conclusion, two loads to choose from. I think it was buck that brought it up but having the slower loads for practice and the fast loads for longer distance punch with flatter trajectory.

My plan is to go past the top of my previous test by .9 gr in total.
42.3, 42.7 and 43.0

I recall a little heavy barrel lift at 42.1 but it could have been imagined. If 42.3 starts off real stiff the party is over. we will see.

[yobuck]

I think in general most gun companies could benefit by having a better trigger from the beginning. I own a browning 25-06 with a factory trigger and it is almost in line with the jewel trigger. It is by far the most superior single stage factory trigger on a rifle that ive ever felt. I own a pile of handguns and most every one except 2 have had to either have a complete trigger job or replacement all together. It seems that most factory triggers are long heavy and gritty. I imagine the long and heavy is law suite avoidance. A good example is Remington's old trigger with inferior safety release that killed or injured hundreds of people. I know the semi auto needs to be a bit heavy to prevent full auto but Im talking they are getting ridiculously bad triggers these days.

I think you hit upon at least part of the answer when you touched on the law suit issue.
Now your responsible for accidents caused with the guns you modified and not the manufacturer.
There have been gun related accidents with lots of different guns, much of it during the loading/unloading process.
Nothing is as dangerous as a fool with a gun or someone untrained in its proper use.
My Jewell trigger dosent even have a saftey.

[DanSavage]

Now back on topic of the thread. After giving it some thought. Even though the 41.5 (area) seems quite accurate, Im well below even book max velocity by nearly 100 fps. I also would be 250 to 300 fps below what others seem to push there rounds at. So it may very well be just and information gathering effort, but I will explore the upper end of the velocity chart this weekend.

My theory is that I will indeed find a much faster node that is accurate. And once again, like the creedmoor, have at my conclusion, two loads to choose from. I think it was buck that brought it up but having the slower loads for practice and the fast loads for longer distance punch with flatter trajectory.

My plan is to go past the top of my previous test by .9 gr in total.
42.3, 42.7 and 43.0

I recall a little heavy barrel lift at 42.1 but it could have been imagined. If 42.3 starts off real stiff the party is over. we will see.

Are you going to compete with this rifle? What a lot of these highly competitive shooters are doing is getting the high velocity but they are trashing their brass,, maybe 1-2 firings then the toss it. IMHO Accuracy and wind doping skill's trump in my world.