Reply With QuoteThanks for the real life report. I would have expected at least some expansion; definitely enough for an almost instant death at that range with such a heavy bullet.
Thought i'd share my experience this week. I have a savage build based on a model 11 action, in 300 wsm, mounted in a choate tactical stock with a 24" brux bull barrel.
I have been shooting great groups with Bergers 185 gr juggernaut otm's. Worked great for ground hogs. Decided to take it deer hunting this year. I was concerned with the match tactical hybrid bullet design. After some research a few ppl say they have had good success with bergers on game.
Well i had a small buck come out at about 60 yards and i let one go, just behind shoulder and around 1/4 the way up the body from bottom.
Deer ran 50 yards and collapsed. Upon inspection i see no blood. No visible entrance wound, hidden in the fur. Flipped deer over i see tiny red blood mark. Move fur back and see exit hole, appeared to be no larger than 35-375 caliber. Basically the bullet zipped right thru like a solid. I hit no rib bones. Bullet did not expand but shot placement was excellent for kill shot.
Needless to say, i will not be using these for hunting deer. Or atleast only going to shoot when i have a clear shot so i can pinpoint bullet placement for kill shot. But lack of external wound leaving no blood is a concern even tho most deer i shoot do not run far. Think i'll use a ballistic tip nosler or similar next time
Even the big speer 270 grain 376 steyr loads i have expanded on a lung shot. These berger juggys are just to thick and not designed to expand
Thanks for the real life report. I would have expected at least some expansion; definitely enough for an almost instant death at that range with such a heavy bullet.
Umm exactly what did you expect from such a short range shot from a magnum caliber rifle running a heavy match bullet and not hitting any bone what so ever. I'm positive if you were to aim for the shoulder results would have been much better. I have no doubt the 185 is a very capable and effective bullet for game.
Try the standard Berger vld hunting bullets.
I shot a buck at 20 yrds with my 6.5 creedmoor and a 140 vld. Hit was broadside slightly quartering toward me. 1/3 down from the top and almost midway between front and rear quarters.
Small entrance with a rather large exit that sucked out intestines on the way out. Literally hanging out of the hide. It was unreal. Deer ran maybe 60 yrds.
We've seen some Berger bullets fail on animals from time to time.
Ummm how bout some massive expansion as seen in other reports on the net? I have had expansion on other high velocity rounds with no bone hits before with typical hunting bullets. I have read match bullets had thin jacket but these bergers are advertised as a thicker jacket tactical use bullet. Whatever that meansOriginally Posted by stomp442
And shoulder shots damage alot of meat
Last edited by Orr89rocz; 12-04-2014 at 10:24 AM.
Like i said first and foremost its a match bullet. The fact that it didnt perform like the hunting vlds is not the bullets fault. From my experience with berger bullets and shoulder shots meat loss is very minimal as the bullet doesnt come apart until its way inside the vitals. If you want the drt massive expansion performance you need to aim for bone at such close range. Berger bullets are designed as a long range hunting bullet if your average shot distances are 200 yards or less you may want to use a bullet designed for those parameters.
Yeah its a long range match bullet. Not exactly like the vld match bullets tho. Just posting my experience because i read on several websites reports of match bullets fragmenting just after impact with no exits. Causing massive internal damage and quick kills. Not necessarily bone hits either. I was skeptical of using these bullets until i read some kill reports. Figured these would hold up abit better since berger says they are thicker jacket than the vld match and hybrids. I guess its too thick. I shot a ground hog at 150 ish yrds and had devastating tissue damage. Thought the bullet blew apart on it but guess it didnt. Not a great comparison to a deer, but all i had to compare. Very accurate load just not an ideal hunting bullet as some suggest on forums. Good with excellent shot placement however but in thick woods where some minor brush deflection could occur, something softer may be better suited
Im sure it would work fine I have read those other reports of performance and have some of my own experience as well but all of the shots are much longer than 60 yards.
Try the barnes ttsx. y friend just bagged 2 deer and recovered one of those copper bullets and I weighed the bullet after he scrubbed it up. It was a 35 cal 225 grain ttsx and it weighed 225 after the expansion. One of the very best hunting bullets ever produced.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
I disagree jonbearman. I dont want small holes going threw the deer I want massive damage inside the vitals.
Tsx bullets have their place. Imo moose is one. Otherwise I really like the hunting vlds.
With the Berger hunting VLD's, I like to use one bullet weight heavier than with a lead-tipped bullet; if you shoot deer with a 130 gr soft-point bullet, use the Berger 150 gr hunting VLD. If you are shooting bigger deer, use the 168 hunting VLD. They are more likely to retain enough weight to exit a larger deer. I also like an exit wound, and when the Berger hunting VLD's exit, people take notice of the massive sucking hole. If you are shooting less than 300 yards, by all means stay with the standard soft-point bullets. If you plan to consider a longer shot, make it with the Berger hunting VLD, or I hear JLK VLD's are the equivalent.
Jim
if you like the 185 juggernauts try the 185 classic hunters. basically a hybrid hunting 185, thinner jacket
Here is a nice little coues buck I took yesterday with a 6.5-06 Ackley improved shooting 140 berger vlds at 257 yards.
And here is the exit.
I always load a rifle for the range I'm going to be shooting and the target I'm going to be shooting at. If I'm taking a shot inside 50 yards, I wouldn't take a magnum. Way too much velocity inside 300 yards for most bullets to perform like they should. I recently shot a deer with 150 hornady sst inside 30 yards from a 308 winchester. Deer had no heart or lungs after that. Velocity was kept low to maximize the damage done at close range.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
lower velocity more damage? what am i missing here?
That doesnt make sense to me. Thought bullets had minimum limits to impact velocies and not necessarily upper limits but it is obviously a concern
My load is lucky to see 2800-2850 fps. A 30-06 with a 150 gr bullet could see similar speeds. My 6mm rem will see 100 gr at 3000-3100. Yet with partitions at close range the other guns perform as expected for a controlled expansion bullet.
I dont think velocity is a concern at all here. Its bullet jacket design. Clearly the tactical jugs have much thicker jacket not designed for expansion. I was expecting more fragmenting after penetration. Maybe it needed bone hits to work. Like i mentioned my 376 steyr with a known to be thin jacketed speer 270 grs at 2500-2600 fps opened up well on a deer at same distance. The 376 was designed to be used on cape buffalo. Reason i chose the speer bullet because everyone seemed to note it was relatively light jacketed. I wouldnt use the factory hornady 270's
Try the 185 classic hunters. It is a hybrid design just like the 185 juggernaut. It's is my understanding that the juggernaut and the whole line OTM bullets have heavier jackets and therefor less "expansion and devastation" than the VLD. With the classic hunter you get the same expansion as the VLDs but you can load them to mag length like juggernaut.
These are what I am shooting in my Savage 110 300wm @2950. I can only vouch for 1 kill, as I have not been using them very long but I have been impressed. The juggernaut is NOT designed for hunting, use a bullet that is.
-Leo
Nice deer! Congratulations!Here is a nice little coues buck I took yesterday with a 6.5-06 Ackley improved shooting 140 berger vlds at 257 yards.
And here is the exit.
The 185 Juggernaut is a great accuracy bullet, but as part of the Target lineup, has a thicker jacket on it compared to the Hunting bullets. The thicker jackets will prevent the expansion from occurring that our hunting bullets will provide. this is why we do not recommend any of the Target or Tactical bullets for hunting applications.
I am surprised that a "Tactical" bullet would not be a good hunting round. Isn't something "Tactical" designed to hunt humans? Most humans are smaller than a lot of the game we are after.
The Tactical bullets are designed with our thicker jackets to hold up better in "tactical scenarios" (rapid fire creating hot barrels, shooting through windows, etc). Its the thick jacket that prevents expansion from occurring and why we don't recommend them as we prefer our hunting bullets to penetrate into the chest cavity of the animals, then expand and fragment to cause the most internal damage. The thicker jacketed bullets will tend to zip through and not give the expansion we want to see.
I have used 168gr VLD hunting bullets in my .308 win trophy hunter xp on two deer this year. The first was a small 8 point at 150 yards broadside. I hit this deer a little far back. The berger nicked a rib on the way in and spun laterally. Not the biggest exit hole and the buck ran about 75 yards. Massive internal damage with the lungs, liver, and some guts pulverized.
The second was a doe at roughly 30 yards. The VLD broke both front legs and obliterated the heart. Seemed like the bullet is pretty tough to me. The exit hole was akin to Gacop's. My only complaint would be too much damage, Sierra GK's let me eat closer to the hole. This bullet is the most accurate I have found in my Model 11.
Makes sense. I wasnt sure how much thicker it was. I read some match bullets were to thin to be used for hunting and would fragment. Figured the tactical could work better. Guess i'll look into one of the vld hunting versions or switch guns. I just love how nice these bullets shoot out of this gun all the way to 1100 yards so far
just use the 185 classic hunter it's the same bullet just lighter jacket
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