Reload advice needed***NEW RANGE RESULTS***

[mrhaka]

Here's the rifle I was shooting today:
Savage 243win
Model: 12 VLP DBM
243 WIN 1 in 9.25" twist
26" SS Fluted barrel

My handloads were blown out of the water by some Rem store bought ammo.
All shots were taken within 30 mins time, @ 100yds, without anything changed, except the ammo.
Look at the accuracy of the 100gr rounds(store bought)
then look at my handloaded 70gr rounds(hand loaded 243 Win, Sierra 70gr Match King HPBT #1505, IMR 4064 @ 36.8gr (35.5 - 39.4gr), OAL 2.625" .
The order in which they were shot was:
100gr Rem (feeling good about my skills, like "this is easy")
70gr handloads (back down to earth)

Any comments or recommendations on reloading the next batch? Can I get the 70 grain ammo to group?
Thanks, MrHaka


[img width=447 height=450]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/bwanatom/Guns/DSCF0648.jpg[/img]

[uad7116]

Don't know much about reloading the .243 win, someone with more experience with that cartridge will chime in, but what I do know about handloading is try different powder weights, different powders and seating depths and if all that fails then I usually get a different bullet weight. The bullet weight may be the problem your gun shot the 100grs real well but not the 70gr, your gun may not like 70gr bullets it may just not like that brand of 70 gr bullet, just have to keep working on it till you find something it likes. Kris

[McKinneyMike]

9.25 might be a little tight for 70 grain bullets, but no direct experience with 243 caliber myself. The 100 rain bullets look like they loved the faster twist of your barrel though!

[possum1]

On my factory stock L/A .243 with a 70gr. Berger I load 41.0 IMR4350 and 38.5 IMR4320. Get bug holes ;D

[McKinneyMike]

What is the twist rate on your barrel?

[Uncle Jack]

Looking at the target, I too would think that your barrel/twist is more compatible with heavier bullets. I would kick it up a notch and try some 85gr Sierra HPBTs with either 4350, 4831SC, or H Hybrid 100. They are still light enough to get good velocity for varmints and yet that bullet is pretty good on whitetails.

uj

[scratcherky]

I would quit reloading!

[pa hog]

70gr's will shoot out of the factory 9.25" just fine. I would go back to the beginning with your handloads, You may have just hit a bad node in your powder selection. Try loading up from min towards max in increment's of a half grain to start, then take the good ones and fine tune them. You could try to get a little closer to the lands, but are gonna need some measuring tools to do it properly. I've shot 70gr Blitzkings, 60gr Sierra Hollow points and 58-75gr V-maxs with Sub-Moa accuracy in factory 243Win 1-9.25" twist barrels.

[mrhaka]

70gr's will shoot out of the factory 9.25" just fine. I would go back to the beginning with your handloads

I'm going to try a little more powder, like you suggest, maybe .5 grains at a time. I did start on the low side, so I'll ramp it up a bit.

On my factory stock L/A .243 with a 70gr. Berger I load 41.0 IMR4350 and 38.5 IMR4320. Get bug holes

Thanks, that gives me a little confidence.

I would quit reloading!

That takes away the confidence previously attained.

What is the twist rate on your barrel?

My barrel twist is 9.25", it is in the original post at the beginning.
Mr Haka

[borg]

I have read that seating depth has greater effect on accuracy than powder type and the specific charge used. I don't know whether or not that is true, I've just read it. And I can't for the life of me remember where, but the data was very suggestive.

But I went the other way around when loading my first time around. First I found some cheap factory ammo my rifle liked, then I loaded up a similar bullet of identical weight. It turned out that my .30-06 liked 180 gr Remington Core-Lokt Express and any bullet lighter than that was about as accurate as spitwads. I loaded up some 180 gr Hornady SP over increasing charges of H414 and took it to the range. 3 MOA @ 100 yards. So I looked up the most accurate load in a Hornady reloading manual. I bought some RL-19 and everything settled down. Now, I'm guessing that if I experimented with seating depth I could get the H414 to shoot between about 1.5" and 6", but it just seems like such a lost cause right now.

[sparks1]

I would quit reloading!

This one I would take as sarcasm, and continue with the others advise. Do a ladder load test and then work with the best group as far as seating depth adjustments for fine tuning the load. Once that is down pat try different primers. Remember to change only one thing at a time, or you will be chasing your tail. Funny to watch but not fun to do. You just get dizzy.
My .308 likes 4064 never tried it in .243 (been awhile since I reloaded for .243) May be a better powder oout there for your bullet weight. re--- faster? I use 4064 with 168g SMK's in .308...no Varget available.

Good luck

[DGD6MM]

That's why they call it building load and development. It takes more then 1 try usually, you'll get there with the advice given here. Factory loads are for people that either don't know how to reload or are to lazy or have lots of money, I don't fit into any of those categories so I reload. Also I should mention I'm also CHEAP! I just bought a .243 model 10 today and I already load for my brothers rifle, I use Retumbo and a 105 Amax's that is outstanding out to 600 yards from a 22 inch sporter barrel.

[borg]

I would quit reloading!

This one I would take as sarcasm, and continue with the others advise. Do a ladder load test and then work with the best group as far as seating depth adjustments for fine tuning the load. Once that is down pat try different primers. Remember to change only one thing at a time, or you will be chasing your tail. Funny to watch but not fun to do. You just get dizzy.
My .308 likes 4064 never tried it in .243 (been awhile since I reloaded for .243) May be a better powder oout there for your bullet weight. re--- faster? I use 4064 with 168g SMK's in .308...no Varget available.

Good luck

Sarcastic honesty. If factory ammo shot that well in my .30-06, I would have not started reloading when I did. Now accuracy is an addiction. Could I quit if I found an inexpensive factory round that shot that well? Probably not.

As for the comment about reloading being cheaper, it's only because we shoot so much. How many of those rounds are load development?

[Slowpoke Slim]

How far off the lands are your bullets seated now? I would lean towards the suspicion that your bullets are jumping too far to the lands. Also important is your powder charge is actually BELOW the starting load for that bullet in my Lyman #49 manual.

Start here:

First, a "ladder test" of 5 shot each, with a .5 grain increase in powder every 5 shots. I wouldn't start off with the starting load at all, but at the half way point between "start" and "max". According to Lyman's data, that's 37.0 grains to a max of 41.0 grains. So, split the difference and start with 39.0 grains of powder, and .5 grain increments until you hit 41.0 grs. So you will effectively have 5 sets of 5 shots to test with this powder. That is my version of a "ladder test".

Second, I would "start" my test with the bullet seated 10 thousanths off the lands in my individual rifle. You don't really need any fancy tools to find this measurement. Take a case, charged with powder, and set it under your seating die, with the die intentionally sitting "long" in the press. Seat the bullet so that it sticks out noticeably too far in the case, then "test chamber" it in the rifle. Notice how far the bolt still needs to travel when it stops, and turn the seating die into the press frame deeper. I usually do a quarter of a turn at a time, until you get to the point that the bolt just BARELY closes on your round. Now measure that distance of your over all length (OAL), and write that number down. That will be the distance to the lands on YOUR rifle with THAT bullet. Now just seat that bullet 10 thousanths deeper into the case, and there you go, that's "10 thousanths off the lands".

Start there, and keep good notes on what works, and what doesn't, in YOUR rifle.

In my particular rifles, SMK's like to be "jumped" 10 thou to the lands, AND I don't have any rifles that shoot worth a crap at a "starting load" powder level. Most of my rifles seem to find there "sweet spots" at or near the max load for a particular powder. Just approach "max" with due caution, because no 2 rifles will hit the same pressures with the same powder charge. Hence, the "ladder test".

If you don't see a good load with bullet seating depth at 10 thou off lands, then try 20 thou off lands, or even "on" lands, or even try "jamming" bullets 10 thou INTO the lands. In each case, when you change seating depth, make sure you start your powder "ladder tests" all over again, pressures change when seating depth changes.

Good luck, welcome to handloading.

[trappst]

mrhaka,

Looking at the target, you fired only 5 rounds with the reloads....all different powder charges correct?

There is no possible way for you to make any kind of conclusion based on what you fired. The 70g Sierra should shoot very well in that Savage. Work up a load slowly and find the best powder charge for your barrel. 3 shot groups are okay but since you have a heavy barrel and are shooting target bullets, I'd do five at each charge.

Once you find the charge, fine tune the load with small changes in seating depth. IMR 4064 is a good powder but it can make a barrel hot real fast so be aware of how fast you're shooting.

Go load up some more rounds, fire 'em and report back.

[mrhaka]

Sarcastic honesty.

That's the way it was taken, just fun.

Also important is your powder charge is actually BELOW the starting load for that bullet in my Lyman #49 manual.

At my bench I was looking over the load data and notice the same thing. That bothers me because I take pride in being careful. Glad I only loaded the
5 rds.

Start here:

First, a "ladder test" of 5 shot each, with a .5 grain increase in powder every 5 shots. I wouldn't start off with the starting load at all, but at the half way point between "start" and "max". According to Lyman's data, that's 37.0 grains to a max of 41.0 grains. So, split the difference and start with 39.0 grains of powder, and .5 grain increments until you hit 41.0 grs. So you will effectively have 5 sets of 5 shots to test with this powder. That is my version of a "ladder test".

Second, I would "start" my test with the bullet seated 10 thousanths off the lands in my individual rifle. You don't really need any fancy tools to find this measurement. Take a case, charged with powder, and set it under your seating die, with the die intentionally sitting "long" in the press. Seat the bullet so that it sticks out noticeably too far in the case, then "test chamber" it in the rifle. Notice how far the bolt still needs to travel when it stops, and turn the seating die into the press frame deeper. I usually do a quarter of a turn at a time, until you get to the point that the bolt just BARELY closes on your round. Now measure that distance of your over all length (OAL), and write that number down. That will be the distance to the lands on YOUR rifle with THAT bullet. Now just seat that bullet 10 thousanths deeper into the case, and there you go, that's "10 thousanths off the lands".

Great info, I'll do that with my next reloads.
thanks for the help, MrHaka

[mrhaka]

mrhaka,

Looking at the target, you fired only 5 rounds with the reloads....all different powder charges correct?

There is no possible way for you to make any kind of conclusion based on what you fired. The 70g Sierra should shoot very well in that Savage. Work up a load slowly and find the best powder charge for your barrel. 3 shot groups are okay but since you have a heavy barrel and are shooting target bullets, I'd do five at each charge.

Once you find the charge, fine tune the load with small changes in seating depth. IMR 4064 is a good powder but it can make a barrel hot real fast so be aware of how fast you're shooting.

Go load up some more rounds, fire 'em and report back.

There were only two loads shot at the target posted. Thanks for the good info as well. I am ready to load up some more, various loads in .5 grain increments to start.
thanks again, MH

[Three44s]

My favorite powder for .243 is Imr 4350.

I am also suspicious over that fast twist and 70 gr. bullets. Others can have good luck but it does not mean your barrel will like them..... you just have to search for the sweet spot if it exists.

By and large a ten twist is good down to 75 grs. in .243

But it is only sensible to not just shoot one or two round groups ..... you'll never learn anything that way. I make up three round groups for the lower end of the load range and get up to five round groups as I pass the half way between the start charge and the maximum.

The reason I do this is two fold:

One .... why waste sweat and tears on a low load that I won't stick with anyway?

Two ...... the upper range is where I want to be .... and if there is a sweet spot I up there ..... I don't want to miss it.

If I get a sweet spot ...... I go back over it and even ferret out in .1 grain increments to get the last hairs breath of good out of it.

And the info about seating depth doubly applies ..... but be sure to treat those different seating depths as separate and new loads ...... start low and work up.

Best to start "ten or twenty thou" off the lands.

If that does not cut it then branch out to more and less clearance.

With lighter bullets, I would not hold my breath at much over 30 thou off ......

Best of luck ..... remember, we are "always here"!!!


Three 44s

[1Shot]

...With the Nosler 70's I only use a stiff dose of Varget...90's for deer sits on top of H4350...4064 shot good in the .308 but heated the bbl. faster than H4895...You never stated what your intended purpose for your load to be used for...Myself I'ld start at 1gr below book max & go from there if it's for hunting...

[borg]

+1 on the barrel heating. +2 on seating depth.

[mrhaka]

Upon further analysis, the 70gr probably didn't have a chance to have a decent group.
They were loaded a hair below min setting. As a result, I have taken all similar brass (win)
and trimmed them to size, and loaded them in a step ladder format. The range for Varget
powder with a 70gr HPBT MatchKing bullet is 37---41gr. @ 2.625" . I loaded:
10 rds @ 37.5gr
" 38.5gr
" 39.5gr
" 40.5gr
I also have some 90gr FMJBT Gameking rounds I am going to load in similar fashion. I hope to
try them all out this weekend, and will post some results. After I find what loads best, I will
follow the procedure you folks mentioned about the "lands" (new to me). I hope the 70's shoot
well enough to keep, I have 200 rds of them.
thanks, MH

[L.H. Clark]

Please do post back Mr....and way to be.. never give up! You are SURE to find that sweet load. A few more trips to the range and you'll have it.. I love this part of it all. Then you know what your rifle will do and your confidence goes through the roof with that rifle and in general and you will be taking shots that your buddies will talk about for years.... Good luck and enjoy..

[mrhaka]

Back with range results
I can't explain this: The 70gr is out shooting the 90gr by a wide margin???
I have read that my 9.25" twist works best with 100gr bullets?
It proved that last week when I originally posted this thread.
Except for the center of target #2, these are all 5 shot groups. The 70gr shot so well that my shots doubled up on the holes.
Check out these results:
MrHaka
I loaded up some more 243 to test out two different sized bullets:
Sierra 70gr MatchKing HPBT
5 rds @ 37.5gr IMR4064 (target #1)
5 rds @ 38.5gr IMR4064 "
5 rds @ 39.5gr IMR4064 "
5 rds @ 40.5gr IMR4064 "
5 rds Rem 100gr(store bought) "

Sierra 90gr GameKing FMJBT
5 rds @ 35.0gr IMR4064 (target #2)
5 rds @ 36.0gr IMR4064 "
5 rds @ 37.0gr IMR4064 "
5 rds @ 38.0gr IMR4064 "
4 rds @ 38.5gr IMR4064 " <<<=== 70gr MatchKing (notice how the 70gr started to group again, as compared to the 90gr)

[img width=448 height=450]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/bwanatom/Guns/DSCF0660.jpg[/img][img width=449 height=450]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/bwanatom/Guns/DSCF0658.jpg[/img]

[1Shot]

...Look&#39;s like 40.5 wins that round... 8)

[bythebook]

Isn&#39;t it a little lopsided comparing a match bullet to a FMJBT in tests ?