Hello All,
I'm still a bit of a beginner at reloading and am looking for some advice before I work up my next loads. Here is what I'm working with:
-100rds of once-fired brass from this ammo (headstamped FC 308 WIN): http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...-20rd-box.html
-IMR 4064 and IMR 4320
-Winchester Primers
-175gr SMK, 178gr A-Max bullets, 168gr Hornady BTHP
-Lee collet next sizer (haven't used it yet)
This will be my first time using fire-formed brass and the next-sizer. I'm looking to shoot the smallest group possible with what I'm working with. Here is the rifle:
Savage 11VT 24" 1:10
and here is the best group I've shot so far:
175SMK, 43gr IMR4320, Win Prim, Commercial Brass
I was thinking I should start with about 10rds of the above recipe to see if I get similar results and go from there. I was very happy with the above group but it just wasn't consistent (probably because I was using a mix of commercial brass).
I have a few questions right off the bat, but am open to any suggestions on how you think I should go about my next load:
-Is this brass that I'm shooting considered military or commercial? (FC 308 WIN) If it works well, where can I get more of it?
-I am loading 77gr .223 and 175-178gr .308 and have IMR 4064 and 4320. Is either type of powder more suitable for one caliber over the other?
-Any tips on the collet next sizer?
-Should I bother trimming the once-fired casings?
-Would it be worth-while to try benchrest primers?
I have many more questions but thought I'd take it easy on you guys. Thanks for your help and I'm open to any and all suggestions and tips!!!
Last edited by Chrazy-Chris; 07-28-2014 at 12:02 AM.
4064 is great in a 308, never used 4320.
Try to set your collet die to .002 neck tension or so, basically interference fit for your billet and and the neck if the brass. (measure neck diameter of a lloaded round. Then while resizing adjust it so the neck of a sized case is .002 less in diameter) try .001-.004 if .002 doesn't shoot well(it's a good starting point). After 4-5 shots if the rounds become hard to chamber, FL size once, then continue neck sizing
Thanks Luke! So do I understand correctly that for the loaded round that I'm measuring off of to figure out my .002 difference, I'll just press a bullet in with no crimp and measure that? Then, I'll resize the neck on an empty piece of brass to .002 less than that? Finally, for the final round I'll press a bullet in with no further crimping and the sized neck will provide the tension to keep it in place?
To adjust the amount of sizing, do you just screw the entire die in/out?
Yes your spot on when it comes
To measuring your neck tension! In a bolt gun that doesn't have tons of recoil you shouldn't need to crimp ever. So just measure the diameter of the loaded round as you said, and make your die size the neck to .002 less and your good to go!
What type of press do you have? You can adjust LCDs by
Either the amount of force you apply if your not bottoming it out, or if you are bottoming the press
Out then You adjust it by how far
You screw it in, just guess and check till you have the right tension
Luke is SPOT ON in regards to his info.
Next, after you run a load ladder and find the nodes that your barrel likes, start seating bullets longer.
Do you have any tool to check runout of the loaded rounds?
To answer your question about the brass. The brass head stamp means federal cartridge 308 Winchester. This is commercial brass.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
Thanks for the info everyone! I'm sure glad I posted this before diving into this batch.
dcloco- I do not have a tool to measure runout. I didn't know what this was until you posted this and I googled it. From what I understand this would be used to make sure the bullet is seated perfectly straight in the casing? Which tool do you recommend for this?Originally Posted by dcloco
Also, you mentioned seating the bullets longer after I've determined my powder volume. How do you recommend I determine the COAL to be used for my load ladder?
Luke45- To answer your question, I have a Lee Challenger Press. I'll be using the Lee Collet Next sizer and a standard RCBS die for bullet seating.
Last edited by Chrazy-Chris; 07-28-2014 at 08:32 AM.
After reading your post and answers I assume the one time fired was in your rifle. If not they should be full length sized, from then on only neck size.
Sort your cases by head stamp and weigh them to weed out odd balls, is my tip.
Ok, but do you do with the odd balls once you weed them out ?
Group the heavy one's together in a batch, tweak the load for those case's, and do the same for the light case's. If there is only a few odd balls, throw them out, or make something out of them.
Take one odd ball fire formed case and make a dummy round. Seat the bullet really long, and try to chamber it in the rifle. If the bolt won't close (hopefully) seat the bullet in more then try again. You'l be able to tell when the bolt just wants to close, so make your seating adjustments finer until the bolt just closes. This will give you a good idea of how far off the lands you can work with. It will be different for every different kind of bullets, even the 175 SMK's and the 168 SMK's.
This load is pretty much garaunteed to shoot.
42.7 gr. IMR 4064
168 SMK
LR primer
2.800
And that 2.800 varies because the tips of the bullets are slightly different. Some may be 2.797 up to 2.805,, don't worry about that it's where the orgive is that really counts.
Last edited by DanSavage; 07-28-2014 at 07:01 PM.
Also Chrazy-Chris, I've used the Lee collet for quite a while now and what most guys do is set the die up in the press so that the press bottoms out,, giving you the neck tension you desire, by screwing down the die slowly until proper neck tension is achieved. Lee's instructions want you to set the die down further than needed and use your own guess of the feel of the force you apply, that isn't very repeatable in my book. You may see lines on your case necks from the die when it is new, but they will go away after the collet die breaks in.
4064 and 175 SMK
Yes,, if a guy had to settle for one do it all load in the .308 this would be it, good out to 1000 yards and beyond in some rifle's, my buddy can get them going 2730 out of his Armalite 30 .308 with astonishing accuracy. I shot the 175's and they worked great, but me being more of an F-class shooter I've done alot of experimenting with 168 class bulets, for I'm only interested in shooting out to 600 yards max, and I have 3 .308 barrels that all have no issues bug holing 168's of all brands.
Dan- I'd like to try your load with the Hornady 168BTHPs I have. Do you think those will do the trick if I sort the bullets themselves by weight? Does "LR Primer" just mean large rifle primer or is this in reference to a specific brand/type?
I built this to be a 1000yrd rifle so I'm leaning towards trying to get the 175SMKs to work, but if it likes 168s better I'd be okay with that, too. At my altitude, the 168s should stay supersonic past 1000yrds. I'm not too concerned about energy (or lack thereof) because this rifle is mainly for shooting steel and paper. I have toyed with the idea of trying my hand at long range hunting if I can get my reloads consistent; though I wouldn't shoot an animal further than 600yrds.
Sorry if I offend anyone, but I a lot of these really intricate reloading practices don't even come Into play unless your top .1% of all shooters, snd are well under the range if human error. in a lot of cases your loosing trigger time and practice by over complicating your reloading process when so many other factors are more important than a bullet weighing .1 gr more than another.
Size, prime, weight powder, seat bullet.
Then turn your seating depth powder charge and neck tension to your rifle
Being able to judge wind, familiarity with your rifle, crisp trigger pull, and tuning the correct load will do one thousand fold more for you than spending 10 minutes per bullet on the loading bench. Now once you start shooting 3" groups at 1000 yards then all that other stuff comes into play.
If you miss judge the wind by 2mph, or your parallax isn't perfect, or it's 5 degrees warmer than you though, then all the litter extra steps you took were wasted.
Guys don't over complicate it, sometimes a bobber and worm is the best bait even though it's boring
Didn't offend me at all. I'm here to learn. I've only read that Sierras are superior to Hornady's because they are more consistent and some remedy this problem by weighing the Hornadys and sorting them by weight. My reasoning is that since I'm already putting so much time into reloading, I don't mind spending an extra few minutes doing something this easy; especially since I only have about 20rds of the Hornadys I need to burn up. I'm a beginner reloader still trying to figure out what matters. Appreciate your input, Luke.
If the extra time isn't taking away from your trigger time then go for it! To use an analogy, Just make sure the engine and Transmision are running well before you put in high performance windshield washer fluid LOL!
That being said, sierras are one of the most well respected bullets in history, old timers say if your gun doesn't shoot mstchkings well there may be something wrong with your gun ! I've had good luck accuracy wise with pretty much most brands, it's more of a preference honestly.
And as to your "what matters" question
Other than just being consistant- Powder wieght, seating depth, and neck tension are where the majority of your accuracy will
Come from. With a good barrel, you should get 5 shots 1/2 Moa at 100 yards if you tune these three variables. Then you can figure out all the other little details after you get that.
You may have to adjust the powder charge up or down a few tenths for the Hornady 168's. Any regular large rifle primer should work with the load I mentioned. The load is actually a copy of the Federal Gold Medal Match 168 load which has been proven to work well in many .308 rifles. I'd go with the 175's though if your going to run her at 1000 yards regularly.
I see your capable of shooting 5 shot 3/4" groups with factory ammo which is darn good! A rifle can only shoot as good as the ammo that is created, so if your going for precision, you make your ammo as precise as you can with what you have.
I'll be following this thread as I am in almost the same boat. New to reloading and working with a 308.
Very good looking rifle if I may say so. Which SS scope is that you have? I just got mine a bit ago and have yet to get to dial a solution and it's killing me. Tomorrow it's happening.
I see a lot of great replies here!
First off, I'm not a benchrest shooter - I use a shooting mat and go prone for serious work. Different targets at different distances with lots of wind adjustments.
I've also roughly followed the M118LR recipe for my Savage with good results - Sierra 175 grain MatchKings and both Accurate 4064 and IMR 4064 powders. The best thing I did was to sort my brass according to headstamp and keep everything in the reloading process as consistant as possible.
It may be be of some benifit for you to try some benchrest primers. I can't recommend one brand over another, but perhaps buy a box each (100 primers) of two or three different brands to try out. Maybe you'll notice a difference, maybe not.
Maybe it's been mentioned already, but after you've reloaded your cases so many times the brass will work-harden. At some point you will want to anneal the case necks and shoulders to soften them up again. It can be done quickly with just a few basic tools you probably already own.
Consistency will be your best asset. Keep a notebook handy and log any changes to your materials or processes.
Last edited by 390fe; 08-02-2014 at 12:45 PM. Reason: spelling
Thanks for all the good info guys! I just finished loading a ladder of 175SMKs over 4064.
They should be seated right on the rifling. I used the .002" neck tension which was much easier to tweak than the OAL. This is my first time loading neck-sized fire formed brass and I'm looking forward to seeing the results. Wish me luck! I'll follow up with results.
I like your label. I'm gonna have to borrow that idea. In my infinite wisdom I put them in the box and wrote on a regular label what they were in a way I thought I could remember... I put everything down for a year and now I have a bunch of non sense cryptic labels that don't make sense...
Thanks! It is the SWFA SS 16x42. I am not impressed at all with the clarity but everything else works fine for me. I plan on using it until I can afford something nicer. I've heard the 10x is much more clear though. Which one did you go with?
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