Headspace problem I believe

bflee · 01-25-2014, 07:26 PM

I have a new Model 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have shot 20 rounds of 120 grain Hornady Amax through it and then I reloaded them with 140 grain Amax to a COAL of 2.82. They will not let my bolt close. I had to press them down to 2.78 to get it to close clean. I was trying to emulate the factory round but i cant go to 2.82. What would you do? Reload to my guns length or adjust the headspace? The 120's are 2.715 so they work great, but it doesnt have the BC of the 140. Should I send it back? Carry to a gunsmith?

thomae · 01-25-2014, 08:39 PM

If it came from the factory like that it doesn't sound like a headspace problem. Headspace is the distance from the base to a measured spot on the shoulder. If your headspace were off, you wouldn't be able to chamber the 120 grain hornady ammo. Have you checked it with a gauge?
To me, it sounds like your chamber isn't reamed deep enough (perhaps not enough leade or freebore) for the projectile you are using.

Here are a couple of short reads which may help your understanding:
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

bflee · 01-25-2014, 08:56 PM

The 120's chamber with no problem Thomae, but the 140's are hitting the rifling right in front of the case. They are Amax bullets that i reloaded with. They are very tight. I found out I could force them in but they are definitely hitting the rifling. I colored one with a sharpie. I will try to send a picture.

bflee · 01-25-2014, 09:10 PM

I am trying to post this picture.

I hope it works out. I have a new phone.
I dont think this is a reloading issue but I havnt tried the factory 140's either. Bought 60 120's and shot 20, no problem. Reloaded them with the 140, problem.

(Admin note: Edited post to show photo. Many folks find they can not post photos from a phone. Please read the following for more info on posting photos from your computer.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...eman-can-do-it!)

bflee · 01-25-2014, 09:48 PM

I found my problem after looking at the photo i posted for you guys. Look real close and you can see it also i am sure. For a hint the rifling marks are only on one side.

JW · 01-25-2014, 09:57 PM

The 140 gr bullet will be longer than the 120
Hornady manual lists the 140 amax at 2.800 coal and the 120 amax at 2.710
I would load to fit the rifle ( .010 to .020 off the lands)
Seat the bullet .005 at a time until you get a smooth bolt and you will be close to the lands then seat .010 more

Jack

**bootsmcguire** · 01-25-2014, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by bflee

The 120's chamber with no problem Thomae, but the 140's are hitting the rifling right in front of the case. They are Amax bullets that i reloaded with. They are very tight. I found out I could force them in but they are definitely hitting the rifling. I colored one with a sharpie. I will try to send a picture.

Just as thomae said. You are going to have to seat your bullets a tad deeper to keep them from hitting the riflings. Your chamber is just not throated long enough to run the 140's at the length you want.

I am assuming that your factory 120's are loaded to the 2.82" length and it sounds like you are trying to copy that length but jumping up to the 140's. Well that appears to be the problem right there, the ogive of the 140's is farther forward on the bullet than the 120's and going to the same OAL of 2.82" for both bullets is causing the 140's to hit the rifling before the bolt closes. You will have to seat them a bit deeper, and of course work up your charge properly since you are going to be seating the bullet in deeper and taking up powder room with bullet.

bflee · 01-25-2014, 10:19 PM

Its a reloading issue. I somehow seated my resizing die too far down about halfway through reloading 20 cartridges. I squashed the case a little at the top. You can see it in my pic if you look closely. It pushed off to one side and I noticed it after i held the 120 beside the 140 and iI noticed the ogive on both were in the same place. I realized the bullet was not my problem. It caused the shell to push off to one side slightly enough to mark it but the roll was what was was holding the bolt from closing.
Basically I ruined 10 pieces of brass. Could be worse I guess.

**bootsmcguire** · 01-25-2014, 10:25 PM

What kind of die where you using?

I am just curious.

bflee · 01-25-2014, 10:27 PM

Hornady New Dimension Dies boots. It was my fault though. I was trying to reload with my six year old boy asking me a million questions. I just wasnt paying enough attention.
Lesson learned!

bflee · 01-25-2014, 10:30 PM

I have ten that worked so I am not sure he didnt "help" me when i went to the bathroom!

**AZ_GUN_NUT** · 01-25-2014, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by bflee

Its a reloading issue. I somehow seated my resizing die too far down about halfway through reloading 20 cartridges. I squashed the case a little at the top. You can see it in my pic if you look closely. It pushed off to one side and I noticed it after i held the 120 beside the 140 and iI noticed the ogive on both were in the same place. I realized the bullet was not my problem. It caused the shell to push off to one side slightly enough to mark it but the roll was what was was holding the bolt from closing.
Basically I ruined 10 pieces of brass. Could be worse I guess.

You did that when you forced the bolt closed, I've seen that before. It wasn't your dies that did it. Do like the others have told you, seat the 140's deeper so the ogive doesn't hit the lands and you'll be ok.

bflee · 01-25-2014, 10:41 PM

I have ten that work and ten that dont. I didnt push on all ten of the ones that didnt work in the gun with the bolt firmly so i am pretty sure i did it with the resizing die. The other ten are 2.82 and the bolt closes fine. They are not rolled and fall into the chamber without an issue.

**243LPR** · 01-25-2014, 10:42 PM

I have the same problem with my LRP in 243. If I seat the bullets to just touching I still have a lot of magazine space left. Savages just have short chambers. If you want to run bullets long you will need to have it re-throated,something I guess any gunsmith could do easy enough.

**earl39** · 01-25-2014, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by bflee

Basically I ruined 10 pieces of brass. Could be worse I guess.

they ain't ruined. if they will chamber just use them for fouling shots and they should size fine next time. you need to back your die out a bit more cause that is the built in roll crimp which your don't need that caused the problem.

**limige** · 01-25-2014, 11:43 PM

I would suggest you buy a hornandy oal gauge and the modified case. Start at step one and progress.

First you measure your chamber to find out where the rifling starts. Then you work off that. Generally .010-.020 off the rifling does well.

As for your die. I start by running the handle up and adjusting the die to your shellholder then turn it back up two turns. Next I've used a candle to put soot on the shoulder of the case and slowly work the die down till you touch the shoulder and lock it in place. It helps to have a comparator to keep track and make sure you dont bump the shoulder back too far....
or the safer route is to neck size. Keep it off the shoulder all together ..

I would look into this stuff before you go any further or get an experienced loader to oversee your first go around. This is a dangerous thing if done wrong.

**AZ_GUN_NUT** · 01-25-2014, 11:59 PM

Neck sizing is the way to go. Once you fire form your brass to your chamber there's no need to full length resize!

**243LPR** · 01-26-2014, 10:03 AM

I'm really liking the Lee collet dies.

bflee · 01-26-2014, 10:05 AM

I cant get them in 6.5. Everything i have is lee except the 6.5. Its just a little different to adjust. I will get it right. These arent my first reloads.

**earl39** · 01-26-2014, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by bflee

I cant get them in 6.5. Everything i have is lee except the 6.5. Its just a little different to adjust. I will get it right. These arent my first reloads.

Sure you can. Lee will make a collet die for you if you send them
Payment of $60.00 + shipping
2 fired cases from the rifle that the ammunition is to be reloaded for
2 sample bullets
Not sure what the turn around time is now but my 338-06 collet came back fairly fast a couple of years ago.

Walleyeman · 01-27-2014, 11:01 PM

Hello:
First time here on this site. The above listed problem really hits home. I have a new Savage model 12 .223 LRPV and I have the exact same problem. I have used the Hornady guage that gives me the overall cartridge length which is to "Jam" using 69 grain .224 Sierria BT Match Kings bullets. Using .223 Lapua brass. If I chamber the round and then open the bolt to extract the round, the bolt rotates up but won't slide rearward to eject the round. Gently tapping on the bolt handle with a piece of wood, the bolt will slide rearward and eject the shell. Upon looking at the ejected shell, it too has a "skuff mark" on the side of the bullet directly in front of the case mouth. I'm thinking that the bullet and case are not concentric and the bullet is chambering slightly "cocked" when entering the chamber. I've had the same problem with my 22-250, off and on. I'm using a RCBS Competition bullet seater. It seems that if I full length re-size the problem doesn't exist, but I'd rather neck size only. I'm using this die in an old Pacific single stage press, light blue in color. Could the upper die, the seater, not be perfectly aligned with the shell holder and empty case? Thank you for any advice.

**eddiesindian** · 01-28-2014, 10:40 PM

Ive done the same thing loading for one of my gas guns. Had the die adjusted improperly as well.
What Ive done is Ive pulled the deprimmer assy out of the die and resized the case shoulder (carefully) Its easy. Its sounds scary due to it being a loaded rd, but theres nothing that can possible hit the primer to set it off.
Course, I wouldnt blame you if you simply just pull the bullet and resize the brass all over again. Done that as well. Friend of mine has a collet puller that works fantastic.

bflee · 01-28-2014, 10:43 PM

I have to get a puller. I have a handful of "mistakes" to pull now.
308 and now some Creedmoors.

**eddiesindian** · 01-29-2014, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by bflee

I have to get a puller. I have a handful of "mistakes" to pull now.
308 and now some Creedmoors.

roger that: I have an old rcbs impact hammer Ive used thru the yrs but the collet puller is 10 times faster, especially if you got more than a few to pull.
Ive havent resized but more than 7-10 loaded rds as I mentioned. Does play on your mind....but I do prefer pulling.

The Ghost · 01-30-2014, 08:53 PM

I am having somewhat of the same problem. Mine is a very short throat. I have a savage FCP-K 308. I have the hornady COAL gauge and headspace kit. They work great for the price. When I started to get ogive measurements for the 168 & 175 HP I found this problem. It shot my break in ammo great, even at 200 yds holes were touching with 3 different types and weights. So the gun shoots good not sure if I want to have the throat reamed out. Is this a common problem on newer savage rifles?