Reply With Quote1 degree of temp change usually adds/subtracts 1 fps in my experience. 2 moa difference at 800 yds from 38 degrees to 72 degrees. That's a 308 with a 178 amax.
How many of you IMR 4064 users seen proven signs of 4064 being temp sensitive.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
1 degree of temp change usually adds/subtracts 1 fps in my experience. 2 moa difference at 800 yds from 38 degrees to 72 degrees. That's a 308 with a 178 amax.
Ive found it to be very consistent for me. I use it in 223, 22-250, 243 & 308
Do a search for work done by Dr. Denton Branwell, he's a member over at shooters.
Has done a ton of good, honest scientific testing.
So when someone like, oh say Hodgdon, tells you their powders are insensitive...
In most cases that "difference" isn't a statistically valid difference. And extruded powders can ONLY exhibit that trait in a very specific set of circumstances; the issue is they aren't very forthcoming with that info.
For example, Varget is designed to be magic in the 308 with 150gr bullets. But it really stinks when used in the 223.
Heat soak is the big issue, and what people trend to blame on powder.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
I personally think the whole "temperature sensitive" thing is way over-analized. If anyone has developed a load that is bone nuts perfect at 30 degrees F but will blow the rifle apart at 75 degrees F, your problem isn't temperature sensitivity, it is sanity.
Ive had excellant proven success with Varget and .224 in 68/69/75gr pills for the past 17yrs.......Originally Posted by darkker
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
This is more or less what my train of thought is.
Past weekend I was sending 175,s out to distance from 100 out to 1100. The day,s temps were in the 70,s.... By the time I started sending them out from 9 on out, my poi was high. Instead of adjusting my elev which I know for a fact is spot on, I grab,d another box of rds out of my gun bag which was shaded and away from the sun light. I sent the 1st rd and could instintly feel the difference. I landed 1 shot hits from 900/1000/1100 after I made the switch.
My belief is that you do infact have propellants that are temp sent. but wont show it untill you start sending them out to distance.....say 700 and out futher.
Last edited by eddiesindian; 02-15-2014 at 03:41 PM.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
I've burnt lots of 4064, but I've never shot any of it in the COLD!??, in MAX loads for the '06 in 100* temps out in the desert I never saw issues while shooting Jack rabbits?, not very scientific?, but if it didn't work for me I wouldn't have stuck with it for 25+ years now?
I think it is mildly more temp sensitive than varget, I have only noticed it in big temp swings like I have had a certain load that was great at 80 degrees, then not quite as fast at 40 degrees. I wonder if some of the difference you are seeing is the actual cartridge temperature changing neck tension just a bit possibly adding to the variables.
I'm sure you have, as have many others. And with any repeatable testing you would see that from a true "sensitivity" standpoint, that is a terrible application for Varget.
The fact that you have had good results with it in that setting speaks directly to my point. If more people would do their own testing, and learn their craft; discussions about "important" issues they don't understand would go away.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
roger that...theres always that possiblilty. I sometimes wish I could have a chrono just automatically set itself up for me under these conditions.
Just gotta learn to deal with the elements
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
4064................................do you use it
Last edited by eddiesindian; 02-17-2014 at 01:30 AM.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Im getting ready to start dealing with the heat of the great southwestern part of Tx (again)...........Last yr, it was the norm to be shooting in 100 plus dg weather. I adjusted accordingly with powders such that of Varget/Rl-15/Tac/4350 but this will be my 1st summer using 4064.
4064 has showed me great results out to distance but its been pretty cool in these parts. Im looking forward to using it. Seeing as how I cant get any of the powders Im used to here locally Ill start up another load with another powder.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
I keep reading that and I am not sure what you mean. Somehow what you are trying to say here escapes me. Could you clarify?
Last edited by Rustydust; 02-17-2014 at 12:35 PM.
I have loaded IMR 4064 for both winter deer hunting and summer varminting. I did not shoot the load during the opposite season. All loads performed well with great accuracy and velocity and with no noticeable variation that could be due to temperature sensitivity. It was the best powder I have used in a .220 Swift and worked well in .30-06 with 150-165 grain bullets. I quit 4064 because to the long kernels and inconsistent metering. Now I have bought a jug of AA4064 and hope I get the virtues of IMR4064 without the problem.
Metering 4064 sure does require some work. ive used it before in the past but I oppted for another propellant for that same reason. I cant find what I usually run so 4064 is the powder for now. Thanks for the insight on your use of the powder. Im interested in how that AA4064 works for you. Keep me posted. The lgs has plenty of that powder in stock. be as it may, its gonna be along time before I run out of the 8lb jug of 4064.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Burned several kegs of 4064 in a 308, but no more.
For better or worse, while I still have one choice; I'll support the last private Merican plant I can.
Although General Dynamics owns and operates the(former) IMR plant in Canada, I'm trying to support the american plant they own in St. Marks.
Relatively recently, GD completely changed that Canadian plants production process. 4064 is no longer a super long thin stick, and some granules are almost spherical-ish.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Really? Should make it easier to do "compressed" loads but I can't help but think that has to change it's burn rate characteristics?
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
I have 3 lbs of this "new" IMR 4064 that I bought a few years ago. It is a mix of long sticks, longer sticks, short sticks and some flattened ball powder. Some of the sticks were 1/2 inch long.
I contacted Hodgdon about this several months ago, thinking it was contaminated. They wanted a small sample which I sent, but I never heard back.
An internet search turned up a few discussions about this. It appears some lots are blended to obtain the desired burn rate.
I have tried this powder in 308, 7mm-08 and 243 Win. Very pleasantly surprised at the groups I have gotten with this. Charges are the same as before.
More recent 4064 I have gotten is like the old stuff.
Yes, gotta remember a few things about canister grade powders; and Hodgdon/other blender resellers.
Canister grade(What the reloader buys) is typically blended lots of surplus powders to begin with. With some of the very "old" powders, they are production run contracted runs. Given the production change in Canada, it's reasonable to assume that Hodgdon is blending various parts and pieces to make product. That is speculation, but consistent with what blenders/resellers(like hodgy) do. Be nice too here of some very current lots.
The nice thing is that cutting extruded kernals won't effect their burning rate.
Something i wonder about....
One of GD's specialities, is making things happen and quickly. When Olin spun off Primex(the Florida ball powder plant), GD REALLY ran with it. And ball powder is a much faster process than extruded anyway. Well ATK had an agreement with Rhinemetal for extruded powder tech. That didn't seem to be terribly fruitful, ad they struggled to keep production at the Radford Arsenal. So GD was brought in to get it straight. So it really wasn't a huge surprise when ATK lost that contract to BAE. GD also picks-up the extruded IMR plant in Canada. And Thales calls up GD for powder tech help with their ADI ectruded plant in Australia. Makes me wonder if they aren't up to some "hybridization" work...
Sorry if i rambled.
Last edited by darkker; 02-19-2014 at 12:59 AM.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Interesting--I've had several 1 lber's and they have all been the same long stick with no variations. There must be a time frame which is associated with the serial/stamps? I just perused through my rather diverse collection of powders--it appears that almost nothing is made in the US--except for Hodgdon's "Superformance" which is a mystery powder that may or may not be similar to what Hornady uses/manufactures for it's ammo? This sounds like commercial reloading powder is highly vulnerable to production vagaries (as we have experienced in the past couple of years).
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
Must not be cost effective to make propellants in the states?.....
I got so used to metering with Varget/RL-15 for yrs. Last 5 lb,er of RL-15 I was able to get was 2 days before the mishap @ Sandy Cook.
Cant find RL-15 or Varget here locally so thats why I oppted for 4064. Its a dam good propellant but a pain to work with.
I sometimes wish I was a mad scientist with the capabilty of measuring exact burn rates of propellants in the comfort of my garage. jk...
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
RL 15 and varget have showed up again at my LGS. I think hit or miss is going to be the way of life from here on in--another driving force in hoarding behavior.
[B][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Shooting--it's like high-speed golf[/COLOR][/B]
The local gun range had Varget in one pound and in 8 pound canisters. when the crisis hit, the nice gent/manager at the lgs/range put a limit as to the amount you could buy per visit, understandably so. a couple of weeks go by and i had intentions on buying an 8lb can but there was none to be found. the manager advised me that "some" club member was buyng the 8lb-ers he had in stcok and reselling them for a profit. "that" member was banned from the gun club but it left everybody high and dry. the manager said he would no longer attempt to get 8lbers of varget any more.
this hole hoarding thing sure is a pain.
if anything?..............its made me shoot more conservetably.
sure would like to get my hands on a 5lb jug of RL-15. Im down to about 2lbs of it. I develope,d darn good loads with that powder and have become very fond of it.......but then again, I guess nothen last forever....
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
There is only one private (non Gov't owned) powder plant in the US, that is the General Dynamics ball powder plant in St. marks, FL. Superformance is canister grade powder, ammo makers don't use canister grade powder; just the reloaders(us).
So all Hodgdon & Win ball powders come from that plant. I don't know the Accurate line well enough, but 2700=414=760; so at least that one too.
Alliant's USA made powders WERE made by ATK in the Militarys Radford Arsenal, since they lost the contact to run the plant; I don't know if BAE will continue that.
Unless it is a "contract" production run, when I say "made by", I mean the non-canister parent.
As an example: SMP 842 is where CFE223 comes from.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
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