260 Remington for Whitetail Deer. Max Range

[limige]

I appreciate the feedback

[stomp442]

LOL. Oh yeah! At least on the New Mexico side we have a pinyon or juniper to lean on....around where you are in Arizona that might be a luxury.

Yeah yucca and occotillo cactus doesn't make the best shooting platforms.

[sniper15545]

Neither caliber is by any means a good choice for 1000 plus yards hunting situations,But the 260 is definitely a better choice then the 308. Nobody has shot a 308 more then me In both hunting and work and I can tell you that past 650 yards the 308 is less than impressive as a hunting caliber. grant it I personally would take my 340 Weatherby or my 300 rum for hunting these distance's. Beyond the caliber choice, Being a avid hunter for 40 years and many years of shooting for a living I only know a handful of people who should even be shooting at animals at these distance's.

[thermaler]

I use and load for a 6.5 284--don't get me wrong; I have long had my eye on 260 as another 264 bullet and 308 case reload option.

Looking in the Berger manual I see a very interesting claim that the 260 140 VLD generates "almost 90%" of the energy of a 300 WM 190 MK at 1000 yds yet 60% the recoil. Even when I run the numbers with a very optimistic hot load assumption of 2700 mv for the 260 I can't seem to come even close to that number (nor would I be hunting with a 190 MK in my 300 wm anyway).

What am I missing?

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[LoneWolf]

I see guys pushing 175 SMKs at 2700fps out of the 308. I would expect more like 2900fps MV from a 260 with the 140gr VLD.

[thermaler]

I see guys pushing 175 SMKs at 2700fps out of the 308. I would expect more like 2900fps MV from a 260 with the 140gr VLD.

I'm using Berger's own max velocity figures and rounding up for most of them. I load the 140 vld myself for my 6.5 284 but it is an "extreme" bullet and takes up space in the case.
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.30 Matchking 180 on the left--.264 140 vld on the right.

I'm not too worried about burning out the barrel on my 6.5 284--but the 260 looks especially attractive in the 300 to 700 yd range (something which is beyond my consistency skill anyway at this point).

[LoneWolf]

Guess that's why all the Ackley Improved versions have been coming out.

[stomp442]

I've helped load develop for a few friends of mine who have all purchased or built 260s and everyone of them is easily able to reach 2800+fps using 43-43.5gr H4350 and a Berger vld. Like I have said before the .260 is really a fantastic performer and works much better than most give it credit for. The energy claim by Berger may be a bit off but the .260 will achieve the same or better trajectory and produce wind drift very close to that of a .300 when even shooting the big heavy bullets.

[thermaler]

I ran the numbers again using your 2800 fps assumption--(I'll take your word for it that you actually chrono'd it) and I see you do in fact get about 800 flbs of impact--I know quite of few hunters hold that as the "unofficial" minimum for taking deer. Whatever advantages the load has over 300wm in terms of flatness of trajectory and wind drift bucking ability are negligible to non-existent at that range and beyond according to the calculators I use.

That's a pretty hot load too-- well past the recommended max--so I'd be too chicken to use that routinely even if I wasn't getting pressure signs.

My hat is off to you for being able to consistently put them down at that range! : )

[Stockrex]

so how far out will 140 vld stay supersonic out of a 260 at 2800 fps?

[thermaler]

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so how far out will 140 vld stay supersonic out of a 260 at 2800 fps?

One hot mamma fer sure.

[yobuck]

certainly the berger "appears" to be the superior bullet for long range performance.
but dont be throwing your smks in the toilet either as they also work very well.
we arent at all attracted to published data over things like wind drift. it is what it is
and we deal with it. there is also only so much we can do to improve upon a cartridge.
my argument is that as "hunters" we should attempt to put as much hurt as possible
on the animals we seek to kill at any distance but especially at long distance.
a 190 to 200 gr 30 cal bullet driven at 3300 fps or more will do that better than smaller ones
at similar speeds, and much better than those at lesser speeds. a large exit hole will hemorage
more blood leading to an easy recovery better than a small or maybe even no exit hole.

a case in point is the situation we encountered this past season. we hunt from fixed position lookouts
and always the same ones year after year. we have probably 20 or more we use depending upon sun conditions,
available food etc. this year a couple days before the opener one of my sons took a little scouting mission to a few
lookouts. when he came back his facial expression told the story. his only comment was listen to me this is where were going
first day and dont be giving me any sh-t over it. well it was a spot that would have been well down on the list for me but we went.
all of our hunting is done with large tripod mounted binnoculars some refer to as big eyes. about 8.30 am my son picked up a deer
about halfway up the hillside we were glassing. we couldnt see its head due to a tree in the way. it just stood there so i picked up and moved so as to get a different angle. he turned his head and bingo, a very nice rack probably the one he had seen earlier. we were
already set up with the gun ready except loading. we ranged the buck with a lazer at 635 yds. i watched the trace of the shot and
knew he hit the deer behind the shoulder facing us. the angle would have taken the bullet towards the off side hind quarter.
the bullet splashed in the snow behind the animal. the deer immediatly ran on a 45 degree angle uphill about 50 yds and stopped
where a good second shot wasent very possible due to thick small trees. i knew he was hit and hurt bad. at that point 3 more bucks
and a doe ran out of the area the buck had gone into and ran accross the hill. we switched shooters and without reranging sent a round
at one of those bucks which had stopped. a second quick follow up caught him high on a front leg just below the body. a third quick shot put him on the ground. the other two had moved off again and stopped about 100 yds further. it was then my turn since no one else was available to shoot. again no re range just shoot due to time. second shot put that one down after a quick evaluation of the first. obviously hurting very badly he stumbled down the hill and behind the tree line out of view. it had all taken less than 5 minits. the first buck had also stumbled down hill about 50 yards before collapsing leaving a blood trail visible to the naked eye at over 600 yds. the gun is a modified version of a 30x378 on a mark 5 action with a 30 " barrel in a bedding block and weighing just about 20# with the 8.5x25 leupold scope. the load was 98 gr of retumbo pushing the 190 smk at about 3400 fps. none of those animals were hit in "thee" perfect spot yet all died within a very short distance of where they were first hit.
now the question could be raised as to wether a 260 could have killed those deer. i would say in that case it no doubt could have. but again
back to the scenario i made in a prior post. what if the whole thing had started at 1000 yds?
you cant improve on dead, and smks have been making things dead for us for a very long time.

[thermaler]

I know other hunters who swear by MK's as well--but what are these bullets doing on impact? As far as I know they more or less vaporize and turn tissue to blood-shot jello--but that is apparently the attraction of them at longer ranges--a large area of traumatized meat being preferable to a "one that got away" having not quite hit the mark.

[Stockrex]

holy &^^% super sonic still at 1200 yrds, wow,
Thanks,

[LoneWolf]

Well back to the OPS simple question. What is the max effective range on whitetail Deer using a 260rem? Obviously there are better cartridges for 1000 and beyond, but the ops question hasn't fully been answered.

[stomp442]

Here is a couple scenarios from the past couple years for me. 1st is my buck from last year that we found feeding toward the top of a ridge the next mountain over. It had been a long hunt and this being the last day I decided to take this small buck. He was feeding up and away from us and we only had minutes to find a shooting position and get a range before he fed over the top. Range was taken at 1243 yards elevation was dialed and the shot was made. First one went right over his back and he froze the next one entered his last rib and came out about four ribs forward on the offside with a nice nickel sized hole. Shot was not perfect but he only took about three steps before he rolled down the mountain. This was done with a 6.5-284 shooting a 140 Amax at only 2840fps not any faster than my 260. This past December my friends wife was able to take a buck in a very similar fashion at almost 700 yards with a 120 Amax entering and exiting both front shoulders producing a very clean and instant dirt nap. I don't see how the big 30 cal magnums are doing anything different.

[yobuck]

well certainly that should answer lonewolfs question.

[yobuck]

I know other hunters who swear by MK's as well--but what are these bullets doing on impact? As far as I know they more or less vaporize and turn tissue to blood-shot jello--but that is apparently the attraction of them at longer ranges--a large area of traumatized meat being preferable to a "one that got away" having not quite hit the mark.

i cant honestly answer those questions. im sure they arent vaporizing as there is always an exit hole. is tissue damage caused by
the bullet or the energy induced by the bullet? there are seemingly many experts on this subject. how many have first hand experience
could be a different matter. hitting the "mark" can be challenging at any distance for any hunter so im not sure thats a good assesment
of the situation. i would suggest you make notes of your own experiences with your own guns. also make note of other information you
find. at some point you will be deciding whats best for you based on all youve gathered.

[thermaler]

i cant honestly answer those questions. im sure they arent vaporizing as there is always an exit hole. is tissue damage caused by
the bullet or the energy induced by the bullet? there are seemingly many experts on this subject. how many have first hand experience
could be a different matter. hitting the "mark" can be challenging at any distance for any hunter so im not sure thats a good assesment
of the situation. i would suggest you make notes of your own experiences with your own guns. also make note of other information you
find. at some point you will be deciding whats best for you based on all youve gathered.

I've been reluctant to try MK's as a hunting load mostly because of the thin jacket issues and "franging" charateristics that other hunters have told they encountered--maybe that's an issue only at higher velocities and/or if hitting something hard. I get your drift though.

[stomp442]

I prefer the fragmenting type of bullet myself. I like them to dump as much energy as they can into the animal not the ground behind it. If they do leave exits they are rather large and internal damage is still excessive. I prefer the bergers over the matchkings because they offer slightly higher ballistic coefficients for the long range shooting that I do. Every little bit helps.

[thermaler]

... I like them to dump as much energy as they can into the animal not the ground behind it. .

That's the basic reason other hunters tell me they like em.

[yobuck]

That's the basic reason other hunters tell me they like em.

well we also do extensive shooting and testing of various bullets. as ive mentioned we can do that without leaving our front yard.
i will admitt to not having tested bergers in all calibers. we have not tested the new version 338 for example. i also havent tried them in 30 cal.
i feel all of them will give good results. i also feel there is a certain ammount of berger mania
going on at this point. ive been being told for several years now im using the wrong bullets in my 7x300 weatherby. a guy i know in n. dakota even sent me a handfull of 180 bergers so i could convince myself. i used those up then paid about 50 bucks for another box. after a couple days i decided im going to use up the 1600 162 hornadys i have. this stuff can drive you nuts if you allow it by listening to everything you hear.
ill just give you an example of how nuts it can get. a few years back i became aquainted with a guy from kansas
ive yet to meet personaly. he contacted me about aquiring a set of big eyes and i hooked him up. since then we talk often and have become friends. he had/has a 338x378 custom gun built by somebody in i think wyoming. the gun has a 28" barrel which isnt enough for max velocity. about 2850 is what he gets with a 300 gr. about 2 years ago he decided he wanted another gun larger than the one he has with a longer barrel. i hooked him up with a pa smith who told him a year wait for the gun. about 6 months later i saw the smith and asked
how jakes gun was coming. he said well i had the barrel but was told to ship it back due to a bad steel issue going around that industry.
it took jake about a year and a half before he had the gun. he had it about 6 weeks before the season with the new nightforce sitting on top. i called him to see how he was doing with load testing as its the same gun i have. he said i havent shot it yet because i cant find bullets anywhere. the gen 1 bergers he had were known to come apart with velocity which led to the discontinuance of them.
i said jake ill send you some of my smks. he said no i wont shoot those. so the new gun he waited so long for sat this season and he used his old one because he didnt have bergers. you call that what you want and ill call it what i want. berger mania and thats being kind.

[thermaler]

well we also do extensive shooting and testing of various bullets. as ive mentioned we can do that without leaving our front yard.
i will admitt to not having tested bergers in all calibers. we have not tested the new version 338 for example. i also havent tried them in 30 cal.
i feel all of them will give good results. i also feel there is a certain ammount of berger mania
going on at this point. ive been being told for several years now im using the wrong bullets in my 7x300 weatherby. a guy i know in n. dakota even sent me a handfull of 180 bergers so i could convince myself. i used those up then paid about 50 bucks for another box. after a couple days i decided im going to use up the 1600 162 hornadys i have. this stuff can drive you nuts if you allow it by listening to everything you hear.
ill just give you an example of how nuts it can get. a few years back i became aquainted with a guy from kansas
ive yet to meet personaly. he contacted me about aquiring a set of big eyes and i hooked him up. since then we talk often and have become friends. he had/has a 338x378 custom gun built by somebody in i think wyoming. the gun has a 28" barrel which isnt enough for max velocity. about 2850 is what he gets with a 300 gr. about 2 years ago he decided he wanted another gun larger than the one he has with a longer barrel. i hooked him up with a pa smith who told him a year wait for the gun. about 6 months later i saw the smith and asked
how jakes gun was coming. he said well i had the barrel but was told to ship it back due to a bad steel issue going around that industry.
it took jake about a year and a half before he had the gun. he had it about 6 weeks before the season with the new nightforce sitting on top. i called him to see how he was doing with load testing as its the same gun i have. he said i havent shot it yet because i cant find bullets anywhere. the gen 1 bergers he had were known to come apart with velocity which led to the discontinuance of them.
i said jake ill send you some of my smks. he said no i wont shoot those. so the new gun he waited so long for sat this season and he used his old one because he didnt have bergers. you call that what you want and ill call it what i want. berger mania and thats being kind.

My impression is that in general most hunters will swear by whatever brings the meat home. I learned a long time ago the folly of "just because I can't/won't do it" doesn't mean someone else out there can't successfully. I guess you could say I'm a "timid" shooter and tend to stay well within manufacturer's recommendations. : )

[yobuck]

bringing the meat home is one thing. having opinions based on opinions is something else.
id be learning to be listening to your gun and be using other data as a starting reference.
thats the one reason i sold my 6.5wsm. my gun was telling me i was pushing it hard.
if i pushed it less could i do with less gun?

[thermaler]

[QUOTE=yobuck;240424]...having opinions based on opinions is something else.
QUOTE]Isn't that the purpose of the Internet? : ) I do tend to pay attention to what more experienced shooters tell me.