Reply With QuoteIf I was a Betting man, I would say your headspace is way to tight.
Dean
So I've got essentially zero primary extraction on my target rifle. It shoots well; it's just that I have to hammer the bolt open with a mallet after every shot these days.
I read all the threads on here, and it sounds like the corrective options are:
1.) Replace the bolt handle with one that's in spec.
2.) Shorten the bolt body.
3.) Add some set screws in a location I've yet to figure out.
I bought the Tactical Works bolt handle, which helped not at all. Nice bolt handle; I'll keep it for another project.
Shortening the body sounds difficult, as does the set-screw fix. Surely there is an off-the-shelf solution that fixes this problem? It must be an extremely common problem, based on the posts here. Is there no bridge, bolt body, or oversized bolt handle out there?
Thanks.
Kuduman
If I was a Betting man, I would say your headspace is way to tight.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
That's possible-- I put the barrel on myself, with the proper tools, but I'm new at that.Originally Posted by scope eye
This does appear to be an extraction problem, just to elaborate. The bolt handle raises fine, but doesn't want to go back. It hangs with fired cases, that were very lightly loaded.
If my headspace is too tight though, it's in the "handful of thousandths" range. But not 0.050" or so, like the PE spec suggests.
There is no rhyme or reason, to how quirky a chamber can be. I only say that because that is the most common problem, I have to fix for other folks that have installed there own barrels, I rarely if ever see to much headspace, check it again just to eliminate that factor.
Dean
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
It could also be the rear baffle being out of spec. Also could be a stacking of minimum specs causing it. If you have another bolt you can borrow the rear baffle from try that after rechecking your head space. The easiest way to see if it is primary extraction is use a feeler gauge between the bolt handle and rear baffle placed on the bevel. May be as little as 5 thousandths or as much as 30 out of spec.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
If what earl says is true the best way to check it that I have found is to slide a feeler gauge between the action and the rear baffle. You wont bend your feeler gauge that way. One solution if changing out the baffle is to shorten the bolt at the rear, maintaing the step(two slots) dimensions to original specs.
A handful of thou headspace is all it takes to make for a very difficult bolt lift; that is why you hear the suggestion to full length size to bump the shoulder back .002". It's a lot easier to recheck that you set the barrel headspace properly before trying to fix something else that ain't broken and perhaps messing that up. Try intentionally setting the headspace "loose" to see if you have the same extraction problem.
Clarify loose Charlie
I am betting the hedspace was set to short also. A set of gauges will eliminate the variables.
Its not clear whether this is factory or self loaded ammo so this is for diagnostic purpose at this point. Two layers of tape (approx .004) on brass fired in this rifle could be used to set loose headspace. If the bolt works OK then you know HS is the issue to fix using combination of setting properly plus sizing brass accordingly if loading.
Headspace has nothing to do with lack of primary extraction. Chances are the new bolt handle is out of spec too. The baffles do not vary that much, but the bolt body lengths will. Take in consideration that there is .020" slack in the bolt assembly from the front to the back. The back of the bolt will move .020" before the extractor will even grip the case solid. It usually takes about .035" more to break it loose, for a total of .055" measured from the boltface.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
I'll save you some time.
6-32s adjusted then secured with 242. Just make sure the screws are adjusted so the face of the baffle sets square to the receiver ring.
Bill
Each morning eat a live green toad, it will be the worst thing you'll have face all day.
All I know is that I have encountered barrels that were installed, with not enough headspace and had this exact same problem, I set it to the correct clearances and the problem went away, maybe this is not this forum members problem in particular, but I have see this happen.
Dean
Last edited by scope eye; 08-31-2013 at 05:07 PM.
RUMs are like woman in Stiletto heals, you know they are going to put you in the poor house, but that has never stopped anyone from pursuing them.
hi guys
I do have have enough knowledge about headspace and bolt bodies to say what the problem is.
Sounds like some of you have a lot more experience than I in those matters.
I would like to add something to think about
the O.P. stated
"This does appear to be an extraction problem, just to elaborate. The bolt handle raises fine, but doesn't want to go back. It hangs with fired cases, that were very lightly loaded. "
And this quote from page 215 of Hornady 9th edition reloading handbook
"slow burning powders used with long bullets behave differently when loaded with reduced charges. These lighter charges may cause unexpectedly high pressure. On occasion primers are blow, bolts stick or even stocks are splintered. This only occures with lighter charge of slow burning propellants and we definitely do not recommend such use in the 243 winchester"
not saying this is the cause but the O.P. saying the loads that were sticking were "very lightly loaded " just got me thinking. It doesn't have to be a 243 he's shooting (I saw a guy stick a 308 by dropping bellow start load)
hope you get it figured out whatever the problem
Michael
Try what stangfish suggested it worked for me, it's a quick and easy check. I would try a .020" blade to start with. If your bolt closes easily on your loaded rounds then changing the headspace won't help. I had to shorten one of my bolt bodies after installing an aftermarket bolt handle.
I found this on youtube. I would put the feeler gauge between the receiver and the baffle like stangfish suggested though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA
I fix my primary extraction problems the same way Billpa does. Works very well.
"Muzzle velocity is a depreciating asset, not unlike a new car, but BC, like diamonds, is forever."-German A. Salazar
Guys,
I have the headspace go and no-go gauges from when I set up the barrel the first time. I pulled the barrel tonight, and if I increase headspace 1/2 barrel turn past where the no-go chambers, it extracts. If you're not following me, that's WAY out of spec...
Headspace, from what little I know, is not the problem.
For the other commentors, yes, the feeler gauge/shim made it extract just fine. And I own one Savage bolt handle with which it extracts, but it's way too short for target use. I could cut off the knob and all that jazz, but is there really not a simple way to fix this? If someone sold a thicker bridge...
Is there really no simpler solution than set screws? (Thank you for posting the pictures of that, btw billpa.) That seems like a solution with a whole bunch of additional failure mechanisms.
I have a friend with a mill-- shorten the bolt body? And hope I don't ruin the threads? Weld up the "ramp", and file it down to +.050"?
I have to say I'm rethinking the Savage action for long-range shooting based on this. I'm committed, but for my friends and for more guns for me... Rem/age seems like the way to go. This is for the birds. I have time and resources to fix this, but not everyone does.
Still looking for a simple solution...
Kuduman
Last edited by kuduman; 09-03-2013 at 09:43 PM.
If you have a friend with a mill and some small carbide endmills Remove the amount off the end that is equal to the feeler gauge. Maintain the deppth of the slot.
The easiest fix is to find a bolt handle in spec.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
It you are going to shorten the bolt body you have to make sure you will still have clearance in the bolt slot of the action and stock.
Putting set screws in the baffle is much easier than milling the end of the bolt body.
"Muzzle velocity is a depreciating asset, not unlike a new car, but BC, like diamonds, is forever."-German A. Salazar
OK So I will bite. So how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie roll?The easiest fix is to find a bolt handle in spec.
3 and no time for popcorn
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
I'm not sure how simple it can be. Your drilling - taping two 6-32 holes which takes only a few minutes, installing two 10-15 cent set screws, adjusting them and the best part, its 100% reversible. Down the road if you change the bolt handle, bolt body, bolt head, extractor or the brass you can readjust the screws or remove them all together depending what's required.
About the only easier way I can think of would be a few layers of duct tape on the baffle!
Bill
Each morning eat a live green toad, it will be the worst thing you'll have face all day.
Well, I may have to try that. (The set screws, not the duct tape.)I'm not sure how simple it can be. Your drilling - taping two 6-32 holes which takes only a few minutes, installing two 10-15 cent set screws, adjusting them and the best part, its 100% reversible. Down the road if you change the bolt handle, bolt body, bolt head, extractor or the brass you can readjust the screws or remove them all together depending what's required.
About the only easier way I can think of would be a few layers of duct tape on the baffle!
Bill
If you look at my picture you'll see the one hole is drilled high. That's to clear the baffle tension spring bore, so be a little careful...measure twice.....cut...errr... drill once. BTW, they're blind holes. Drill them about .180" deep or roughly 1/2 the thickness of the baffle.
Another little tidbit. Since they're blind holes you can add a piece of #8 lead shot so the set screws have something to bottom out on. As you crank down on the screws to get about .070 - .075" PE (what I like) the shot will form to the hole and screw. The screws can be removed, the 242 added and the screws returned back to where you had them set.
Bill
Each morning eat a live green toad, it will be the worst thing you'll have face all day.
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