Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions

[300magman]

So just what is it that makes those light weight benchrest guns so accurate..is it strictly caliber (6PPC) that gives them the advantage over long distance rigs when it comes to point blank (100, 200, 300 yard accuracy?)
I read about 10.5lb benchrest rifles firing 0.1XX, or 0.0XX groups in order to be competitive, yet 600 or 1000 yard guns possibly weighing 17lbs often fire closer to 1/2 MOA at close range....is that because of the twist rate, bullets, and caliber?
Would one of these long distance rigs with a slightly slower twist and some flat base bullets rival the benchrest guns at close range or is there some magic in the build of these benchrest guns?

[82boy]

The difference is mainly in the bullets. Short range guns shoot flat back bullets, that stabilize quickly. The long range guns mostly shoot boat tailed bullets that don't fully stabilize until they are out 100 to 200 yards. My long range gun (Savage 110 Shilen 1 in 8 twist barrel chambered in 6x47 lapua shooting 108 Berger boat tails) shoots just about as good as my short range gun. (in the .3's)

Something else very few short range bench rest guns shoot .1 or.0 groups, (In the .0 area it is called a screamer and you get a patch for it.) there is some freak groups that are shoot from time to time, but this is not the norm. Go to Kelby's super shoot and look at the wailing wall most groups are in the .5 area. Only a small percent are smaller, I would say a competitive gun shoots groups in the .2 area. Being consistent is the key to winning. As the saying goes "You don't have to shoot small groups to win, just don't shoot no big ones." Don't get me wrong Tony boyer usually shoots some .1 area groups, and may other have as well, but every time they go to the line there is a good possibility they will shoot a larger group.

Other difference between a short range (SR) and a long range (LR) gun besides weight. A SR gun they use a slow twist barrel so that the rifle doesn't torque in the rest, and stays on target. They use the slowest twist they can to just barley stabilize the bullet. In a 6PPC they shoot mostly 14 twist. In my area you will not see many 15 twist do to the cold weather, and the bullets will not stabilize in the cold, but they will in the hot weather. SR guns have short barrels because of the weight. (It is hard to make weight) You will mostly see fixed power scopes, fiberglass stocks, and guns chambered in a 220 Russian variant. (6ppc, waldog, ((even modified 6br)) Tall dog, small dog, and 30br.) All because this is what works. The main thing is for the gun to move as little as possible, and when it does move for it to go back to the aim spot quickly. Light 2oz (or less) triggers are used so that they do not disturb the gun. Depending on the conditions may state the way you shoot. On a calm day many will take their time shooting. On a day with fast switching winds many will shoot off there rounds quickly, trying to keep the same condition. In SR competition there is tons of flags used, depending on the size of competition and the range there could be a few hundred flags out. Funny thing is many people shoot light gun in heavy gun (under 13 lbs) class because a heavy gun shoots different. Look at the records the light guns usually have better and/or smaller groups.

In a LR gun, they need fast twist barrels to use heavier bullets to go the distance. The use longer barrels, to gain velocity and to help make weight. 17 lbs is a heavy gun. You will see a lot of laminate stocks used, variable power scopes. To get the weight up many people fill the stocks with lead. A heavier trigger (4 to 12 oz) can work because the gun is heavier, and harder to disturb. In LR good shooters shoot fast, and there are very few flags out. Shooters use trees, grass and other things to judge conditions. The guns are heavy so a heavy recoiling round doesn't move the gun as much, and it help the shooter by not beating them to death with recoil.

There is no magic in building a SR or LR gun, the same principles are there. Many LR shooters use the exact same custom actions that the SR guy use. (Bat, Panda, ETC) some use the bigger versions to accommodate the longer cases and bigger caliber.

I hope this answers all your questions.

[nhm16]

I think if you shoot F-class, Savage comes out better cost-wise, even if you don't buy their F-class gun. Target action for $475, time & true for $125 (I hear that SSS will sell you a T&T target action for less than $475+$125=$600, but don't know for sure how much less), Farrell 20MOA base $70, Seekins or other similar rings ~$110 from Liberty Optics, SSS recoil lug $28 (though I'm not sure how necessary that is for target actions, which seem to have machined recoil lugs from the factory). According to the Savage website, the trigger guard is included. That's $808 not including shipping or FFL. Add $300-$400 for a high end barrel, and $800-$900 for a Sightron SIII from Liberty Optics, and you have a gun that can run with anything made for $2,000 or so total.

Well, that's what I'm telling myself as I price out such a gun ;D

[82boy]

Something else to add on bullets Short range benchrest shooters use exotic handmade bullets by makers such as Bart's, Uber, Fowler, Starke, Council, Zia, BIB, ETC. Long range shooters don't have as many options of bullet selection in hand made bullets. (The only one I can think of is JLK, and BIB.) So they shoot mass produced bullets from Berger, and Sierra.

I would also add this, both disciplines the guys seriously get into tuning the ammo. A Short range shooter is going to tun the ammo to do well at the given range, say 100 yards. A long range shooter is not concerned with how the gun shoots at 100 yards and they will tune their load for the best results at a longer range, say 600 yards. This may be what your seeing onto of the bullet design. There is also different techniques used in the different disciplines, for example long range shooters may trim meplat's where a short range shooter will not. Why because in theory the meplat doesn't make a difference with the wind at say 100 yards but it does at say 600 yards, and there is BC lost with meplat trimming, and this may make more of a difference to one than the other.

[300magman]

Thanks guys, very informative answers and better yet information that makes sence and has reasoning to it......as a side note, have you guys ever noticed how much more you need to learn about something when you're on a budget. A lot of guys with enough cash seem to walk into a smiths shop, lay down X thousand dollars and ask for the best rifles the smith can build for each event, while the rest of us can (or at least try) to do just about as well by learning how and why things work and finding cheaper solutions (its just a lot more work!)

[cwop]

well let me tell you a story. a friend of mine was an avid duck hunter he used an old lc smith he always limited out. his friend went with him used a remington or something couldnt hit the side of a barn. so he goes and buys himself a browning superposed guess what he still couldnt hit a duck. so no matter what the gun you still have to be able to shoot.

if you are a top shooter in b/r or anything else and want to stay there you will go the extra step and expense to have a top gun. when a shooter goes to the extreme of loading at the shoot in order to win then money wont be much of an object. no matter what the sport it always comes down to money money money.

the money invested will make a great shooter an even greater shooter.

good luck

bob

[pa_wdchuckhuntr]

A number of the men who shoot at my clubs winter IBS HV league are using Jim Bordens rifles. Jim's relatively local and often comes to the matches. You can own one of his superb rifles for a paltry $3000.00+/- base price, less optics.

Of course this causes a problem for us lowly working class shooters. You see I've noticed a trend at these matches. Older retired gentlemen with plenty of disposable income and plenty of time on their hands. Me, I'm farther in debt than I am in profit so I find myself at work wasting perfectly good shooting time. Although I'm by no means hurting like some in this country it's still difficult to justfy expending so much in a "match grade" rifle even if it was a $2000 dollar Savage. I'm just "priced out" of the league to the point I don't much feel like trying and I certainly don't feel like giving someone with that much cash more of mine every week. Now if they offered a "handicap" based on your rig....

[Dirk]

A number of the men who shoot at my clubs winter IBS HV league are using Jim Bordens rifles. Jim's relatively local and often comes to the matches. You can own one of his superb rifles for a paltry $3000.00+/- base price, less optics.

Of course this causes a problem for us lowly working class shooters. You see I've noticed a trend at these matches. Older retired gentlemen with plenty of disposable income and plenty of time on their hands. Me, I'm farther in debt than I am in profit so I find myself at work wasting perfectly good shooting time. Although I'm by no means hurting like some in this country it's still difficult to justify expending so much in a "match grade" rifle even if it was a $2000 dollar Savage. I'm just "priced out" of the league to the point I don't much feel like trying and I certainly don't feel like giving someone with that much cash more of mine every week. Now if they offered a "handicap" based on your rig....

Do you want a little cheese to go with that whine? It sounds like you just don't have that "competitors" attitude. Guys like you will always say to yourself "If I just had that kind of rifle" or "If I just had that brand of scope". In your mind, you will always need a crutch.
If you really were confident in your abilities, you would go and compete and at the end of the day you could say "I did my best" and be satisfied in your effort. It doesn't really matter where you place on the score board, just that you did your best that day and you try and do better the next time. But I guess if you need a crutch (excuse) you will never know what it is like, because you will always doubt your equipment.

[Dirk]

Yeah, no sugar coating. Tough love!

[ICUDIEN]

But it usually always works!

[pa_wdchuckhuntr]

Do you want a little cheese to go with that whine? It sounds like you just don't have that "competitors" attitude. Guys like you will always say to yourself "If I just had that kind of rifle" or "If I just had that brand of scope". In your mind, you will always need a crutch.
If you really were confident in your abilities, you would go and compete and at the end of the day you could say "I did my best" and be satisfied in your effort. It doesn't really matter where you place on the score board, just that you did your best that day and you try and do better the next time. But I guess if you need a crutch (excuse) you will never know what it is like, because you will always doubt your equipment.

You know you're post pissed me off in so many ways it isn't even funny. Mostly the fact that you would make such a biased assumption about me based on the little information provided. I spend countless hours, even in these cold temps, at the range working on load development and shooting improvement. Once or twice a week I stop at the range on my way home to get off some rounds before dark in the 20 deg. temps. Come saturday and/or sunday I'm back at the range. Nearly every penny I have goes into shooting and hunting and the continued enjoyment of both. I've done all the work on my Savages myself and I'm damn proud of it every time I pull the trigger. It's the very reason I own them.

[Dirk]

Oh there was PLENTY of info from you on why you don't enter competition in your post. If you are truly passionate about shooting, go to a match and compete! I think you are probably ready, but just need a little push.

[pa_wdchuckhuntr]

I am in the process of developing my 6.5x55 for F-class under some direction from one of the IBS HV shooters who also shoots 600-1000yds. As for IBS HV group, I don't have a rifle capable of reliable sub .250 groups and feel the competition entry fees can be better spent on reloading components.

[helotaxi]

Didn't realize that you couldn't be serious about shooting without competing...

[Dirk]

I am in the process of developing my 6.5x55 for F-class under some direction from one of the IBS HV shooters who also shoots 600-1000yds. As for IBS HV group, I don't have a rifle capable of reliable sub .250 groups and feel the competition entry fees can be better spent on reloading components.

For a competitive F-class rifle, all you need is 1/2 MOA rifle. All F-class targets have an X ring that is 1/2 MOA. That's 3 inches at 600 yards. Go enter an F-class match with what you have and enjoy the experience.

[docsleepy]

Hey Gordon, I did the same thing that you did, I built a custom rifle, and what I learned from doing so, is far well worth the cost of the rifle, and more so.

\
82boy: incredibly helpful overview information you have given! Very helpful.

As to what makes it more accurate:
1. My experience: so far it isn't JUST the 6ppc. My new Shilen 6PPC barrel is not yet exceeding the groups of my .223 Savage -- even when I moved the Savage barrel to an ancient Sav110 that was RUSTY when I bought it. There is more to it than JUST the 6PPC.
2. The Shilen barrel is SHORT and STUBBY, on purpose, to reduce the "twang" of the long varmint rifle. Testing shows so far that a 2 grain change in H322 results in ONLY a 0.75" rise in point of impact at 100yards -- with the long .223 Savage varmint barrel, it was about THREE TIMES as much. So the short, FAT barrel is making a positive improvement. A combination of several groups plus a few shots with minimal horizontal error and very consistent vertical trend convinced me of this data.
3. My new stock has not yet arrived. Results above are from a tupperware stock bedded with Devcon, using the old (factory) recoil lug. Groups still not much better than 0.500 at 100 yards, 5 shots.
4. Next items on list: I Read the FAQ on bag technique on benchrest.com. I am doing it badly. Also: could be my scope. Will swap scopes in an experiment soon (maybe tomorrow). Also: could be the action; could be my load, probably IS related to the tupperware stock: although not making "two groups", the wide horizontal and nearly equivalent vertical dispersion suggests random error from one or more sources, likely the stock. I'm working on each item a bit at a time....I make lists of what I think I did wrong and want to do better. Once I forgot to perfectly remove parallax...wasted rounds... Current bag setup does NOT ride forward/backward well. Try powder (Suave) deoderant. With the thin forestock, my rifle cants too easily in front rest; get better results with bipod actually.

Loading: Unable to find "best charge" because my errors from other problems vastly exceed the powder errors. my variation in verticle due to 0.1 grain of powder is less than half a tenth ofan inch....but my horizontal is 0.5". So....(wilson) seat to the lands, load reasonably, and work on technique. Later, should beable to improve.

The reduction in torque from going from a 1:9" barrel to a 1:13" barrel is significant. That is helping me out somewhat. Still learning! Much fun. Did some "club" competitions last summer when off work, learned a lot.

gordon

[Dirk]

Didn't realize that you couldn't be serious about shooting without competing...

If you are quoting me, get it right. I said "If you are truly passionate about shooting, go to a match and compete!"

[Smokepole]

So, if I'm passionate about "heing and sheing" I guess I need to be a porn star right?

[Dirk]

Well, if you've got the equipment..... ;D

[Bad Water Bill]

KIRK This site tries to educate and share information in a FRIENDLY way. There are many other sites where you can brag about your superior knowledge and ability to insult others. You have no idea how many of us you are offending with your superior attitude.

[Dirk]

That really added to the conversation. What have YOU got to add?

[groupshooter22]

KIRK This site tries to educate and share information in a FRIENDLY way. There are many other sites where you can brag about your superior knowledge and ability to insult others. You have no idea how many of us you are offending with your superior attitude.

+100,000,000. Go away Dirk

[Dirk]

The truth hurts.

[pa_wdchuckhuntr]

It seems we lose some civility and courtesy when sitting behind the keyboard. Negative posts and name calling have no value to this thread and stand to gain nothing. We owe it to 300magman not to hijack his thread and I apologize to him for my part in it.

Jeremey

[dc9loser]

I think if you shoot F-class, Savage comes out better cost-wise, even if you don't buy their F-class gun. Target action for $475, time & true for $125 (I hear that SSS will sell you a T&T target action for less than $475+$125=$600, but don't know for sure how much less), Farrell 20MOA base $70, Seekins or other similar rings ~$110 from Liberty Optics, SSS recoil lug $28 (though I'm not sure how necessary that is for target actions, which seem to have machined recoil lugs from the factory). According to the Savage website, the trigger guard is included. That's $808 not including shipping or FFL. Add $300-$400 for a high end barrel, and $800-$900 for a Sightron SIII from Liberty Optics, and you have a gun that can run with anything made for $2,000 or so total.

Well, that's what I'm telling myself as I price out such a gun ;D

Excuse me for being a newby: but who is SSS?