A mid weight varmint round

[Quackaddict]

Alright guys, I would like your input on caliber selection for a new barrel choice. Currently have a Savage 10 FCP -HS in 308 that for the most part has been a SUB MOA gun, I am happy with the performance and accuracy, and the caliber is a hammer on deer and steel plates.

I would however like to get a new barrel more dedicated to varmints. I have owned a 223 and have shot a 204 and while fun and plenty hard on stuff, I am really not impressed with either past about 300 yds, we have a 400 yd dinger set up and the 204 with 39 blitzkings at 3700 ish fps hardly makes it move. Not to mention they blow around plenty at that distance. The 308 is much better, but I really dont think I need to lob 155, 168 and 175 grn rounds at crows and PD's.

So I have been looking at getting a replacement barrel for the rifle in something along the lines of a 22-250 or a 243 class caliber. I am also open to AI versions of either, or possibly another caliber I am unfamiliar with. With a 243 AI, would I be able to push a 70 grn pill close to 4000 fps? How many rounds would I have before I loose a ton of accuracy? minimum bullet I would like to shoot is a 55 grn round, max maybe 80 or 90 grns.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[pa hog]

I've had a ton of different Varmint calibers but I would say my favorite so far, for our Charging Bull Groundhogs here in P.A. would be the 1-14" Lothar Walther 6MM BR I had. 70 Sierrra Blitzking drove tacks and had enuff steam to plow them hogs down.

[laportecharlie]

I had a similar (or maybe the same) 6mmbr. This one will for sure reach out and touch something.
Charlie

[Quackaddict]

Would a 6mmBR feed from the magazine in my rifle? I would assume no change in bolt face would be needed.

[dcloco]

Speed and weight of bullet will be your deciding factors.

Speed - Everybody knows, speed is your friend. But, this friend has two companions that come along with it - barrel heat and copper fouling.

Weight of bullet - lower weight (usually means lower BC as well) versus heavier bullets (usually means mid to high BC) - you need to decide what the purpose of your rifle is.

If your objective is a 500 yard varmint rifle capable of mulitple rounds in the field, I would still recommend something based in the 22 caliber. Bullet weight ranges from 35 gr to 90 grain...with speeds ranging from 4400 down to 2700.

What do I use? 223 AI or 222 AI. The 223 AI slings 69 gr HPBT's at 3300, 75 gr AMax at 3150, and 55's in the 3600 range. The 222 AI (Super Duece) uses 204 Ruger brass necked up and fire formed (just fire form when in the field - the accuracy is that good). With 80 gr AMax's, the Duece slings these at a respectable 3150 fps. You will completely surprised at how well these bullets do in the wind.....even at distances to 1000 yards. I do NOT push my reloads to the highest pressure limits because I shoot in weather from 10 F to 110 F.

I don't use the 22/250 or 220 Swift because of the amount of powder used is directly proportionate to the amount of barrel heat, recoil, and muzzle blast.

[pa hog]

The bolt head is the same as a .308 but you may need to tinker with the mag to get it to feed.

[DannoBoone]

I have both the .22-250 and .243. If there came a need to get rid of one of them, it would
be the .22-250. The 55gr bullets are just too effected by X-wind. My Tac 20 does a LOT
better in X-winds than does the 250. The .243 will shoot 55gr bullets @ 4000fps, 3-400fps
faster than the 250. The Savage barrel twist of 1:9.25 will also stabilize such long range
bullets as the 105 V-max, should you decide to start shooting something like that. This
guy has already got his down to shooting the best at both extremes:
http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB...=11875&start=0

I figure that if this barrel does not last long, I'll be replacing it with a .243AI barrel. I've
heard from more than one source that the AI version, if shot to the same speeds as
the Win version, will not be so much a barrel burner. Time will tell.

[Quackaddict]

Thought about a 223 or a 223 AI but the fact that its a different bolthead and would require different magazine parts kinds puts them at the bottom of the heap. The 6mmBR sounds real interesting, as does the 243 AI.

[okie2]

243 AI is the only way to go for varmits and deer from the same gun

[EFBell]

25-06 will fit your needs.

[358Hammer]

Have spent the first 20 years of my hunting life being terrorized by giant rockchuck,coyote and sage rats.
6X250,6BR,243 and AI 6mm Rem ALa Gibbs are all my old world combination choices.

Personal choice is always your first factor but the 243 is my first typical choice with the 6 X 224 TTH (ala Gibbs) my wildcat choice.

Neal

[savageboy]

whats a 6X224 tth (ala gibbs) ? for us that wanna know?

[MikeCTX]

have been looking at the 250 AI or the 6-250 AI...seems like they would fit with quite well, and for some reason have been really interested in the 250 case for a little while ;D (of course one should never try to justify why one is interested in any caliber we don't have...lol)

[dfrosch]

whats a 6X224 tth (ala gibbs) ? for us that wanna know?

Gotta be some sort of improved 6mm Rem.

[savageboy]

dunno, Thats why I asked? sounds cool- then again, any new info in the topic of calibers, ballistics, etc. is- isn't it?

[Apache]

whats a 6X224 tth (ala gibbs) ? for us that wanna know?

Gotta be some sort of improved 6mm Rem.

Sounds like the 224TTH necked up to 6mm. ;D



(yes, I know that was the parent cartridge)

;D

[358Hammer]

6mm minicoop

This came about when I re-designed the Gibbs line for my purposes. A rimmed o6 case necked up to 338. Then someone(s) asked me to start stepping down caliber by caliber. SO I now have a 6.5 Gibbs which was hard to fill the case before pressure signs. Does beat the 6.5 X 284 by 200fps in all bullet weights.

My long time favorite cartridge was the 257AI. Got to looking at the case, compared it to the 338 Gibbs case. Had JGS make me a 6.5 minicoop based on the 257AI print. Moved the shoulder forward .200 and changed the shoulder angle to 30 degress for maximum flow without restriction. Duplicates the 6.5 X 284 with slightly less powder. SInce I had the reamer made with a removable pilot, I put a 224 pilot on the reamer and made a screaming 224 caliber. 53 grain Barnes TSX at 3700fps and change from a 17" striker barrel. All of my Gibbs versions ( Cooper Express)were based on the 7X65Rimmed RWS case for the Encore break opens. The mincoop was based on the 7x57R RWS case. However I got so much velocity just using the 6mm Remington case I have yet to use the rimmed RWS case. That and I got side-tracked chasing muzzle breaks and 338's.

Explanation I have chased and followed the Gibbs line for two decades. When the U.S. went to throw away cases I could no long experience the velocity of the Gibbs line. SO after 3 reloadings and throwing the cases away I was fed up with that process. I told a friend about the issue and he too had been runing with the Gibbs line. He told me how incredible tough the RWS cases were so I ordered 20 and tried them. Liked what I saw, order a 1000. Have yet to replace any case so I have a lot of extras. SInce the 224TTH is based on the 6mm Rem and the 6mm Rem is based on the 7X57 case it was just natural to buy a bunch of rimmed and rimless 7X57 case. The RWS cases are as tough as the short Mag cases everywhere except the rim to pressure cup. They are way tougher than the short Mag in the primer pocket area.

SO the 6mm minicoop runs with the 6X284 with less powder.

Hope this helps

Neal

[Quackaddict]

Short action gun, 25-06 is out, the plain old 243 is sounding real nice, but the 243 AI sounds like a nasty critter getter.

Are there any feeding issues with the AI out of a CF magazine?

[358Hammer]

Here is an awesome read by guys who are serious about accuracy and long range.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...rtridge-23913/

Neal

[Apache]

Outstanding Neal!

Are you talking about R.E. (Rocky) Gibbs? The one that did experiments with front case ignition? If so, did you try the front ignition cases? I found that fascinating!!!

Have you looked at the potential of the 405 Winchester case? Looks very similar to a blown out rimmed 06 case.

Should be able duplicate anything that the 06 line of wildcats had including the 30-06 itself. Might be able to use standard dies and reamers.

Been tinkering with the idea on an Encore seeing as how it would be a rimmed case and all.

[358Hammer]

Yes I thought about the 405. Gary Reeder did his thing on the 405 and its still a U.S. made case. I ran every rimmed case made here in the states and unlike the RWS case which the rim is the only thing holding the primer. Typical U.S. rimmed cases in the wildcats I made, the rim did not make a difference. When I got to where I felt I should be powder wise primers started falling out just like on a rimless case JD Jones copied the Rocky Gibbs line except he went the wrong way with the shoulder change and made it a 60 degree shoulder. Everyone I knew or met that had the 280JDJ was really angry using JD'S reloading data and could not 1. get the velocity 2. If they did get close to the velocity they lost their cases after 2-3 loadings. I turned many on to the 280 RWS case and their case problem went away. The 7 X65 R is .005 smaller in the body than a typical 06 case so I had the reamers made to compensate for that. SO an 06 case run into my sizing die works fine. Vice versa and the RWS cases will separate at the pressure cup on the third or fourth loading. (Example of how tough those cases are)! The RWS 280 Rem case is the correct size for a tough Improved 06 case. Just expand the 280 to whatever as the shoulder on the 280 is already moved forward as apposed to the 06 case. ANother very nice case I have been playing with is the Nosler case.

The other cool think about my single shot Savages is I leave the Mag bolt head on the bolt and shoot my rimmed cases for the 338R Cooper Express at the same velocities as the 338 WSM with less powder. Doing it with pressure just like the short Mags.

Neal

[Apache]

I have yet to get my hands on some RWS brass but from everything I've read it's better than Lapua, and more expensive, but VERY hard to come by in certain calibers. Where did you get your brass?

Interesting, you were able to use rimmed cases in your bolt action pistols using the mag bolt head. Single shot of coarse. I will be building one of those hopefully this year sometime. Watching you and Greg show your builds here has been very cool. Takes away some of the learning curve.

Did anything in the 25 caliber area? (It's my latest fascination )

[358Hammer]

ncooper@gci.net. Lets not highjack this thread.

Neal

[Monkeymaster]

250 savage.
Take a look at the reloading books and compare ballistics, trajectory, and bullet weights. You might be surprised when you compare it to the 243 winchester.
It is and outstanding varmit rnd with the right bullets for p dogs to yotes and will kill deer as good or better then the 243 with the right bullets.
Reloading makes this round. So if you don't reload ?
A and B barrel from midway .
I shoot 100 grn b tips, 3000 fps at muzzle, 3/4 inch 100 yds. Stevens 200 in 22-250 was the donor.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[Ksmirk]

Quackaddict, here's an idea that I had several years ago for a super long range p-dog blaster that might fit you needs? take a 22-250 blow it out to 40 deg shoulder AI get you a say 1-9 twist barrel and load 75gr. A-Max. It might be a bit harsh on your barrel which is the main reason I didn't build one for pasture maggots but for a calling rifle or the shoot a few times and move on I believe it would be an awesome LR varmint getter. I shoot the 75gr. A-Maxes from my 223 and it works dandy on these little bitty deer around the house. Later,

Kirk