The bolt opens ?80%?, stops, requires a few mallet whacks to open fully. Bolt and cases look fine. Then the bolt works fine for 5-10 shots, then won't open. All parts clean and oily. ??
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The bolt opens ?80%?, stops, requires a few mallet whacks to open fully. Bolt and cases look fine. Then the bolt works fine for 5-10 shots, then won't open. All parts clean and oily. ??
Thats a brass problem. Check everything.
I agree.
What Cartridge?
Hand load or OTC ammo? Bullet weight/recipe?
Pictures of case base?
Does the handle go to the top(turn 90 degrees)? Primary extraction?
22-250, 40 gr nosler/7.5 titegroup, turning stops where primary extraction begins-then mallet. no pix
Pistol powder?? There's the problem.....pressure spikes. That's why it doesn't do it all the time.
I've been loading pistol powders in Savaqe rifles for 18 years. No problems other guns (M10, Striker). No pressure spikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Powders have changed quite a bit in the last 18 years as well as tolerances and specs in todays rifles... I don't know of anybody on this forum who knows more about Savage rifles than Fred "Sharpshooter". If he has taken the time to comment on your issue, then I'd take it and at least eliminate that possibility. You've got some kind of pressure issue going on somewhere... or perhaps like my Axis chamber, you may have a burr or something that is catching on your brass...Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
I was having a misfire problem on one of my rifles and couldn't figure it out. Fred knew immediately!! even though it took me another 2 days to discover he was exactly right.
You came here looking for answers.... Fred is the GUY... My Axis is a 22-250 also... Try some H4895 for those 40 grain pills...
good luck man,
I dont know much but I'm guessing that when a mallet is required to open the bolt a pressure problem exist.
The reason I asked for the load data was I was suspecting what Sharpshooter stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Quote:
I've been loading pistol powders in Savaqe rifles for 18 years. No problems other guns (M10, Striker). No pressure spikes.
Lets do a test. Shoot some Over the Counter(**new brass**) ammo out of it and see if the bolt sticks. If it does we have a problem with the rifle. If it does not the we have a pressure spike.
Today, 12 FV 22-250
40 gr Nosler, 8.5 titegroup, 16 shots, no problem
53 gr Nosler, 8.0 titegroup, 22 shots, 1 case bolt balked, completed opening bolt by hand. The primer was protruding from the pocket. Low pressure ctgs need cases lubed slightly, else the primer backs out. Maybe I just need more oil on cases.
Err what? More oil?
Quote:
40 gr nosler/7.5 titegroup,
The bolt opens ?80%?, stops, requires a few mallet whacks to open fully. Bolt and cases look fine. Then the bolt works fine for 5-10 shots, then won't open.
Too little powder can cause pressure spikes...........Quote:
40 gr Nosler, 8.5 titegroup, 16 shots, no problem
Looks Like 8.5 is good and 7.5 is not so good.
You might try bumping the shoulder less if your primer protrudes more than .002
Son, you're dancin' with the devil..... :devilish:
Hell, what do the manufacturers know about this stuff, anyway? Overbore means slower powders than would be used in a .223 or .22 BR
Recommended burn rate in the H4895 range (89) , Titegroup (15)...
I'd be pulling that trigger with a string from ten feet away.
I have screwed up plenty over the years but why in the world would one use pistol powder in a rifle cartridges?
Single shot rifle shooters shoot cast bullets with pistol powders. 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55... So do the Cast Bullet Association folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by olddav
With Blue Dot, A#9, IMR4227, Unique, Bullseye, Titegroup, many other pistol powders.
I'm shooting thousands of jacketed bullets with Titegroup as a test/for an article.
joe b.
Search on "Rifle loads using pistol powders", see Reduced Power Rifle loads
Which Use Alliant Pistol and Shotgun Powders
http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm
The link you provided http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm, shows only loads for 30 caliber. Every load is a lead bullet. You must recognize the difference in dynamics.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
Sometimes you have to say "hold my beer, watch this". Or maybe you say "I think I will hold off on this and rethink it". "I have jacketed bullets, they are of a different construction than cast bullets." You are justifying the 22-250 boiler room with .22 cal jacket i works like a black powder cartridge that utilizes a .30 cal cast lead bullet. Your own example: 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55. Joe, don't think everyone here just fell off the turnip truck. In this case I believe that you have missed some indicators that you are taking chances. You are using data that is not been represented to be used in a 22-250. You have compared the properties of a cast bullet with a jacketed bullet, you ignored extreme pressure signs and lastly not one person has posted anything wise about what you are trying to accomplish. the one search that you did not provide was "Pistol powders in a 22-250".
The frightening part of this all is this it has the potential to be in an "Article" This would mean other people are tempted to "Dance with the Devil" on your suggestion. IMHO, That is edging up to irresponsible.
Still can’t see the point in it but it’s your eyes, hands and life (assuming your not shooting at a public range).
Example: 223, 12 FV, 40 gr Nosler, 8.5 Titegroup, 2664 fps, .788" avg for 11 five shot 100 yard groups, NO copper fouling = NONE, reduced noise, recoil, barrel wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by olddav
It's about experimenting, new ideas. Don't be afraid! I've been shooting since 1960, written many articles, and the book. I know a little, finding out more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Joe,
I think some of us are puzzled at why you're not making the "link" between what you're "experimenting" with- and the obvious pressure signs you're experiencing.
You're utilizing a very small portion of the case capacity, very fast burning pistol powder, and jacketed bullets.
If you put an RSI Pressure Trace on the receiver, I'd bet my lathe you'd be surprised at the pressure spike(s).
A cast boolit swages easily into the lands/grooves- a jacketed bullet is a completely different animal as Robinhood tried to explain to you. When that jacketed bullet slams into the lands after the ignition of all that fast burning powder, do you not think the pressure spike is going to be much more pronounced than a slower burning powder "pushing" it into them, and then continuing the burn most of the way down the barrel?
I'm no expert on internal ballistics- but that's how I envision what's going on here. As Robinhood said, if there's published data out there on pistol powders in your application with jacketed bullets, I'm happy to eat crow on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
Sadly this post tells a much different tail. OR you are learning to troll.
see aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by tobnpr
OK Joe, Why is your bolt sticking with 7.5 grains of tightgroup?
Deleted previous post as it was in poor taste.
Hodgdon lists Titegroup loads for jacketed 223/55 and 308/168.
Unlubed cases, primer above case head, I think. No flattened primers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
I thought you were shooting a 22-250. So far you have shown no loads for the 22-250. So far everyone has told you it is a no go. You provide evidence for your argument that does not meet any of your criteria. You have made up your mind. Scientific processes have been ruled out. Logic has been ruled out. Brian Litz could not change your mind. Darwin can.
When you figure out what is causing your heavy bolt lift please post it.
Who else do you know who lubes cases to fire in their rifle?
See aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Post #4
Something is missing Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
This is for 223 and 308 not 22-250Quote:
??Hodgdon lists Titegroup loads for jacketed 223/55 and 308/168.
The modern cartridge design is engineered for the case to adhere to the walls of the chamber.Quote:
Primer acts as piston, driving case forward. Higher pressure loads, pushes case back around primer. Lower pressure loads, case sticks to chamber wall, doesn't go back, primer protrudes.
2 common fixes, drill out flash hole, bigger, or, lube cases lightly. LOW PRESSURE only. Many/most experienced cast bullet shooters know/do this. I was told about this years ago, by Marlin Bassett, inventor of pillar bedding.
Notice these guys are talking about CAST BULLETS.
Try this. Get a word document opened. type in or copy and past all of the data you are using. Line by line determine if that data uses all three of these criteria.
* 22-250
** Jacketed bullets
*** 7.5 - ? gr. of Tightgroup
Throw everything else away, Or realize that the data you are using is not for your test and that it means nothing, and you are testing blindly.
My mother in law confuses stories and issues. Someone always chimes in" don't confuse her with facts, her mind is made up".
http://massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html
Read hard extraction and flattened primers.
Read the article.
I'm done. I asked a question and ended up in a dispute that I don't understand.
Again, I have Accuracy and MV data in Excel, free for the asking.
joe b.
I believe you are desperately trying to convince yourself that this is a good idea. My understanding of using TG powder is for applications where subsonic or easy shooting is the goal. You are expierencing signs of danger and don’t seem to care. Lubing your brass because it is getting hard to extract is a recipe for death. You want the brass to adhere to the case walls! Otherwise the bolt head and receiver lugs are taking all of the force generated when firing. If you are shooting brass just under your headspace then it slams the brass into the bolt head. IMHO you want to stay away from oil and lube. Also more likely to result in a carbon fouling ring in the bore and potential pressure spikes.
If I didn't care joe I would have walked on by. However you got the same thing on Castboolits.com.
The only load you used 7.5 grains in was a 12" barrel. Every 16 plus barrel got 8.5 grains. It's in you own data.
xxxxx
Risk ver Reward is skewed toward risk. In my opinion there are better ways to achieve your goals. Never the less I wish you luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
Not true, you never saw the data, 26" bbls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
223 rem and 308 win use FAST rifle powder. They are NOT overbore/major bottle neck case designs. They also have a shallow shoulder angle, Aiding in the flow of pressure. pistol cartidges are FAR more likely to be straight walled, which allows the pressure to work on more bullet surface area compared to case/brass surface area.
Less bottleneck equals faster powder.
I agree oiled cases would put more stress on the action and bolt. This makes me appreciate the cinder block walls between shooting lanes, to bad its not more common.
You are right. I did not see the 26" data. It may be relevant. And just so the forum knows. I am humbled by your research. It is exhaustive. Almost scary the amount of time you must have put in. It would have been easy for you to copy and paste it so I took what I saw and offered it below.
The problem is regardless of how much data you have, in this rifle, the load is flawed. If the PE ramp is making any contact whatsoever, it is not helping. The fact you are using a mallet to open the bolt says the pressure is high. A mallet Joe. Think about that for a moment. You have justified using oil to help case extraction. Think about that for a moment. You think making a larger primer hole is an answer all while potentially making this even more dangerous. You have subscribed to proven faulty pressure sign indicators. You have also subscribed to accuracy and speed has negated the pressure issue. I admire the dedication but warn that sometimes it becomes an obsession.
Now that this horse has been beat to death multiple times how about a different paradigm.
What drives this effort?
What are the goals/purpose?
Is there a specific projectile?
A desired velocity?
A desired terminal performance?
Can another cartridge be used?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL 22-250, 100 YARD 5-SHOT GROUPS
ALL WITH WEAVER T36 SCOPE.
8.5 GR. SEEMS TO BE THE MOST ACCURATE TITEGROUP CHARGE.
THESE ARE THE LATEST AND BEST GROUPS.
M11 BARREL CUT TO 16.5”, 12” TWIST? IN STRIKER PISTOL ACTION AND STOCK
5/10/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 6 GROUPS AVG 1.304”
5/15/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP,11 GROUPS AVG 1.350”
5/17/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP,13 GROUPS AVG 1.648”
30 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.470”
5/10/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG .780”
M11 BARREL CUT TO 16.5”, 12” TWIST?, IN M 10 ACTION AND RIFLE STOCK
5/22/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP,5 GROUPS AVG 1.360”
5/31/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.385”
6/22/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.570”
10 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.440”
5/22/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG .925
5/31/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG .815”
5/31/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG .755”
12 GROUPS AVERAGE .808”
M110 BARREL, RECHAMBERED FROM 223 TO 22-250, CUT TO 16.5”, 12”
TWIST?, IN STRIKER PISTOL ACTION AND STOCK
3/20/17, 225646M, 7.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.310”
3/23/17, 225646M, 75 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.450”
3/25/17, 225646M, 7.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.680”
15 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.480”
3/27/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 7.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 3 GROUPS AVG .867”
BLUE STRIKER BARREL, 14” TWIST?
2/27/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.185”
3/8/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.405”
3/8/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.440”
15 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.343”
4/24/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 3 GROUPS AVG 1.067”
5/1/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 7.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG .945”
8 GROUPS AVERAGE .991”
SS STRIKER BARREL, 14” TWIST?
3/29/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.531”
3/31/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG 1.988”
4/3/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 4 GROUPS AVG 1.150”
4/3/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.400”
4/5/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 6 GROUPS AVG 1.413”
22 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.441”
12/5/16, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 7.0 GR. TITEGROUP, 3 GROUPS AVG .850”
12/26/16, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 7.0 GR. TITEGROUP, 4 GROUPS AVG 1.313”
4/7/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 4 GROUPS AVG .894”
11 GROUPS AVERAGE 1.029”
NEW SHILEN BARREL, 9” TWIST? IN SAVAGE 12FV ACTION AND STOCK
I’VE BEEN SHOOTING THIS BARREL SINCE JANUARY 2017; BELOW ARE THE LATEST AND BEST RESULTS SO FAR.
6/15/17, 225646M, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 4 GROUPS AVG 2.438” AFTER 34 FOULING SHOTS
6/15/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG 1.275” AFTER 54 CAST BULLET SHOTS
6/26/17, 40 GR NOSLER VARMAGEDDON, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 5 GROUPS AVG 1.225”
6/26/17, 50 GR HORNADY V-MAX #2261, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG 1.150”
6/26/17, 60 GR HORNADY SP #2271, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG .800”
6/26/17, 68 GR HORNADY BTHP #2261, 8.5 GR. TITEGROUP, 2 GROUPS AVG 1.075”
ALL 40, 50, 60 AND 68 GR BULLETS; NO TIPPING.
THE AVERAGE FOR THE DAY, 55 SHOTS, 11 5-SHOT GROUPS, 4 BULLETS, 1.107”.
AFTER 60 JACKETED SHOTS, THE CLEANED BARREL, SOAKED WITH HOPPES #9 OVERNIGHT, SHOWED NO SIGNS OF BLUE/GREEN COPPER FOULING.
Joe, you never told us if the oil you have been using has gummed up the chamber. Have you tried to clean it if so? What method did you use to clean?
I was changing bbls on M10 and Striker this AM, Striker cases with >.004" excess headspace and bolt Resists at PE, >.005" and a lotta resistance. It's case length/primer protrusion that caused the problem.
Thanks;
joe b.
Was headspace set with a go and no go gauge or were you over sizing the brass? Was the primer protrusion an issue or was it an indicator of the chamber brass length issue? Glad you got it figured out.
^^^ Behind a tree or bunker.Quote:
Originally Posted by tobnpr
I set headspace with fired cases measured with RCBS Precision Mics. I can adjust case headspace to +/-.001", chamber/bolt headspace to ~+/-.002".Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Monday I fired 54 total shots; Nosler 40 gr, Titegroup, 100 yards, five 5 shot group averages. 8 gr., .685" avg, 8.5 gr.,.740" avg. So far I've recorded groups totaling 2975 shots, all low velocity, almost all Titegroup, and nary a single occurance of a pressure indication or spike. Imaginary?Quote:
Originally Posted by OLEJOE
How are the 7.5 loads working. That was the powder weight you originally stated that was giving you problems. I have had pressure spikes from low Trailboss loads in the 223.
Have you ever used a pressure trace. They are cheap.
The article I posted higher up states that high pressure does not always manifest itself in the ways you mention. It can't hurt. Read it for edification.