12 fv bolt opens part way, infrequently

[joeb33050]

The bolt opens ?80%?, stops, requires a few mallet whacks to open fully. Bolt and cases look fine. Then the bolt works fine for 5-10 shots, then won't open. All parts clean and oily. ??

[Evlshnngns]

Thats a brass problem. Check everything.

[Robinhood]

I agree.
What Cartridge?
Hand load or OTC ammo? Bullet weight/recipe?
Pictures of case base?

Does the handle go to the top(turn 90 degrees)? Primary extraction?

[joeb33050]

22-250, 40 gr nosler/7.5 titegroup, turning stops where primary extraction begins-then mallet. no pix

[sharpshooter]

Pistol powder?? There's the problem.....pressure spikes. That's why it doesn't do it all the time.

[joeb33050]

Pistol powder?? There's the problem.....pressure spikes. That's why it doesn't do it all the time.

I've been loading pistol powders in Savaqe rifles for 18 years. No problems other guns (M10, Striker). No pressure spikes.

[SageRat Shooter]

I've been loading pistol powders in Savaqe rifles for 18 years. No problems other guns (M10, Striker). No pressure spikes.

Powders have changed quite a bit in the last 18 years as well as tolerances and specs in todays rifles... I don't know of anybody on this forum who knows more about Savage rifles than Fred "Sharpshooter". If he has taken the time to comment on your issue, then I'd take it and at least eliminate that possibility. You've got some kind of pressure issue going on somewhere... or perhaps like my Axis chamber, you may have a burr or something that is catching on your brass...

I was having a misfire problem on one of my rifles and couldn't figure it out. Fred knew immediately!! even though it took me another 2 days to discover he was exactly right.

You came here looking for answers.... Fred is the GUY... My Axis is a 22-250 also... Try some H4895 for those 40 grain pills...

good luck man,

[olddav]

I dont know much but I'm guessing that when a mallet is required to open the bolt a pressure problem exist.

[Robinhood]

Pistol powder?? There's the problem.....pressure spikes. That's why it doesn't do it all the time.

The reason I asked for the load data was I was suspecting what Sharpshooter stated.

I've been loading pistol powders in Savaqe rifles for 18 years. No problems other guns (M10, Striker). No pressure spikes.

Lets do a test. Shoot some Over the Counter(**new brass**) ammo out of it and see if the bolt sticks. If it does we have a problem with the rifle. If it does not the we have a pressure spike.

[joeb33050]

Today, 12 FV 22-250
40 gr Nosler, 8.5 titegroup, 16 shots, no problem
53 gr Nosler, 8.0 titegroup, 22 shots, 1 case bolt balked, completed opening bolt by hand. The primer was protruding from the pocket. Low pressure ctgs need cases lubed slightly, else the primer backs out. Maybe I just need more oil on cases.

[RustyShackle]

Err what? More oil?

[Robinhood]

40 gr nosler/7.5 titegroup,

The bolt opens ?80%?, stops, requires a few mallet whacks to open fully. Bolt and cases look fine. Then the bolt works fine for 5-10 shots, then won't open.

40 gr Nosler, 8.5 titegroup, 16 shots, no problem

Too little powder can cause pressure spikes...........
Looks Like 8.5 is good and 7.5 is not so good.

You might try bumping the shoulder less if your primer protrudes more than .002

[sharpshooter]

Son, you're dancin' with the devil.....

[tobnpr]

Hell, what do the manufacturers know about this stuff, anyway? Overbore means slower​ powders than would be used in a .223 or .22 BR
Recommended burn rate in the H4895 range (89) , Titegroup (15)...

I'd be pulling that trigger with a string from ten feet away.

[olddav]

I have screwed up plenty over the years but why in the world would one use pistol powder in a rifle cartridges?

[joeb33050]

I have screwed up plenty over the years but why in the world would one use pistol powder in a rifle cartridges?

Single shot rifle shooters shoot cast bullets with pistol powders. 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55... So do the Cast Bullet Association folks.
With Blue Dot, A#9, IMR4227, Unique, Bullseye, Titegroup, many other pistol powders.
I'm shooting thousands of jacketed bullets with Titegroup as a test/for an article.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Search on "Rifle loads using pistol powders", see Reduced Power Rifle loads

Which Use Alliant Pistol and Shotgun Powders

http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm

[Robinhood]

Single shot rifle shooters shoot cast bullets with pistol powders. 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55... So do the Cast Bullet Association folks.
With Blue Dot, A#9, IMR4227, Unique, Bullseye, Titegroup, many other pistol powders.
I'm shooting thousands of jacketed bullets with Titegroup as a test/for an article.
joe b.

The link you provided http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm, shows only loads for 30 caliber. Every load is a lead bullet. You must recognize the difference in dynamics.

Sometimes you have to say "hold my beer, watch this". Or maybe you say "I think I will hold off on this and rethink it". "I have jacketed bullets, they are of a different construction than cast bullets." You are justifying the 22-250 boiler room with .22 cal jacket i works like a black powder cartridge that utilizes a .30 cal cast lead bullet. Your own example: 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55. Joe, don't think everyone here just fell off the turnip truck. In this case I believe that you have missed some indicators that you are taking chances. You are using data that is not been represented to be used in a 22-250. You have compared the properties of a cast bullet with a jacketed bullet, you ignored extreme pressure signs and lastly not one person has posted anything wise about what you are trying to accomplish. the one search that you did not provide was "Pistol powders in a 22-250".

The frightening part of this all is this it has the potential to be in an "Article" This would mean other people are tempted to "Dance with the Devil" on your suggestion. IMHO, That is edging up to irresponsible.

[olddav]

Still can’t see the point in it but it’s your eyes, hands and life (assuming your not shooting at a public range).

[joeb33050]

Still can’t see the point in it but it’s your eyes, hands and life (assuming your not shooting at a public range).

Example: 223, 12 FV, 40 gr Nosler, 8.5 Titegroup, 2664 fps, .788" avg for 11 five shot 100 yard groups, NO copper fouling = NONE, reduced noise, recoil, barrel wear.

[joeb33050]

The link you provided http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm, shows only loads for 30 caliber. Every load is a lead bullet. You must recognize the difference in dynamics.

Sometimes you have to say "hold my beer, watch this". Or maybe you say "I think I will hold off on this and rethink it". "I have jacketed bullets, they are of a different construction than cast bullets." You are justifying the 22-250 boiler room with .22 cal jacket i works like a black powder cartridge that utilizes a .30 cal cast lead bullet. Your own example: 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55. Joe, don't think everyone here just fell off the turnip truck. In this case I believe that you have missed some indicators that you are taking chances. You are using data that is not been represented to be used in a 22-250. You have compared the properties of a cast bullet with a jacketed bullet, you ignored extreme pressure signs and lastly not one person has posted anything wise about what you are trying to accomplish. the one search that you did not provide was "Pistol powders in a 22-250".

The frightening part of this all is this it has the potential to be in an "Article" This would mean other people are tempted to "Dance with the Devil" on your suggestion. IMHO, That is edging up to irresponsible.

It's about experimenting, new ideas. Don't be afraid! I've been shooting since 1960, written many articles, and the book. I know a little, finding out more.

[tobnpr]

Joe,
I think some of us are puzzled at why you're not making the "link" between what you're "experimenting" with- and the obvious pressure signs you're experiencing.
You're utilizing a very small portion of the case capacity, very fast burning pistol powder, and jacketed bullets.
If you put an RSI Pressure Trace on the receiver, I'd bet my lathe you'd be surprised at the pressure spike(s).

A cast boolit swages easily into the lands/grooves- a jacketed bullet is a completely different animal as Robinhood tried to explain to you. When that jacketed bullet slams into the lands after the ignition of all that fast burning powder, do you not think the pressure spike is going to be much more pronounced than a slower burning powder "pushing" it into them, and then continuing the burn most of the way down the barrel?

I'm no expert on internal ballistics- but that's how I envision what's going on here. As Robinhood said, if there's published data out there on pistol powders in your application with jacketed bullets, I'm happy to eat crow on this.

[Robinhood]

It's about experimenting, new ideas. Don't be afraid! I've been shooting since 1960, written many articles, and the book. I know a little, finding out more.

Sadly this post tells a much different tail. OR you are learning to troll.

[joeb33050]

Joe,
I think some of us are puzzled at why you're not making the "link" between what you're "experimenting" with- and the obvious pressure signs you're experiencing.

What obvious pressure signs? In 223 and 22-250 with 2 223 bbls and 6 22-250 bbls, M10, M12 and Striker, I don't know of ANY pressure signs, in 3-4 thousand shots with jacketed. None.
I think I had primers backing out. Note that the problem described occurred one day with one set of ctgs. Pressure? No!


If anyone wants to see the data so far, ask and I'll send the EXCEL files.
joe b.





You're utilizing a very small portion of the case capacity, very fast burning pistol powder, and jacketed bullets.
If you put an RSI Pressure Trace on the receiver, I'd bet my lathe you'd be surprised at the pressure spike(s).

A cast boolit swages easily into the lands/grooves- a jacketed bullet is a completely different animal as Robinhood tried to explain to you. When that jacketed bullet slams into the lands after the ignition of all that fast burning powder, do you not think the pressure spike is going to be much more pronounced than a slower burning powder "pushing" it into them, and then continuing the burn most of the way down the barrel?

I'm no expert on internal ballistics- but that's how I envision what's going on here. As Robinhood said, if there's published data out there on pistol powders in your application with jacketed bullets, I'm happy to eat crow on this.

see above

[Robinhood]

OK Joe, Why is your bolt sticking with 7.5 grains of tightgroup?

Deleted previous post as it was in poor taste.