HBN-- Excessive copper fouling?

Here's my recent findings on HBN coated bullets (143 ELDX)... As ya'll probably know by now, my 260 rem is now assembled and I've been breaking the barrel in and trying to find "my load" for it recently (130 rounds now).

My first 100 rounds down the barrel where "naked" bullets... the last time I went to the range I shot a total of 50 rounds (had some fantastic groups with that batch of reloads). I went home after that string and foamed my bore as usual... Even after a 50 shot string and a 24 hour foam treatment, I barely had any blue come out from copper fouling.

Went to the range again this last weekend (I HBN the entire box of bullets) with some other loads to try out.... Shot a total of 30 rounds and with only a couple "good groups"... Went home and foamed the bore as usual for 24 hours.... Ran a patch down the barrel and had a river of blue coming out the end of the barrel!!!! It was as bad as my 270 Savage barrel was....

I don't know why this is happening.... Everything I read about HBN says it should reduce copper fouling, not exaggerate it... Has anybody else experienced this?

at 130rds I don't even consider a barrel broken in yet. My new 6.5x47 sped up between 50-60rds and appeared to speed up again between 180-250rds. 24hrs foam treatment is doing more harm than good to a barrel. Those copper treatments are quite corrosive and you can actually start to remove material with them. I only remove carbon in the beginning in order to get a good coating of copper so that the barrel will become more consistent. Once it starts to shoot well I don't clean it until it stops shooting well. As I've stated before once you start shooting coated bullets the barrel will need to be cleaned thoroughly if you are no longer going to shoot coated bullets.

To me your cleaning method is putting you back at square 1 instead of letting the barrel tell you what it likes. whether you're shooting a 140 at 2700 or 2800 it will make it to 1K either way. For example the difference between the 115 DTAC I was shooting at 3025fps only makes it to the target about .1 secs faster than the 140 RDF at 2725fps. It only takes a few tenths of a Mil more wind to adjust for. Load for consistency, let the barrel shoot, and stop worrying about the velocity so much! 130rds on a new barrel isn't going to tell you much about it. I don't even like to take a barrel to a match until I get 250-300rds on it!

I think your bore foam is lying to you. I once used it on a brand new barrel blank, and it still came out blue.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

at 130rds I don't even consider a barrel broken in yet. My new 6.5x47 sped up between 50-60rds and appeared to speed up again between 180-250rds. 24hrs foam treatment is doing more harm than good to a barrel. Those copper treatments are quite corrosive and you can actually start to remove material with them. I only remove carbon in the beginning in order to get a good coating of copper so that the barrel will become more consistent. Once it starts to shoot well I don't clean it until it stops shooting well. As I've stated before once you start shooting coated bullets the barrel will need to be cleaned thoroughly if you are no longer going to shoot coated bullets.

To me your cleaning method is putting you back at square 1 instead of letting the barrel tell you what it likes. whether you're shooting a 140 at 2700 or 2800 it will make it to 1K either way. For example the difference between the 115 DTAC I was shooting at 3025fps only makes it to the target about .1 secs faster than the 140 RDF at 2725fps. It only takes a few tenths of a Mil more wind to adjust for. Load for consistency, let the barrel shoot, and stop worrying about the velocity so much! 130rds on a new barrel isn't going to tell you much about it. I don't even like to take a barrel to a match until I get 250-300rds on it!

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Thanks LoneWolf,

So even WIPE-OUT is hard on Barrels?

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Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter

Thanks LoneWolf,

So even WIPE-OUT is hard on Barrels?

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More barrels are shot out by improper cleaning then actually being fired... I've gone 300-500rds without cleaning a barrels anymore than a bore snake with some frog lube or Hoppe's on it. I normally only do that if I know the rifle is going to sit for a few weeks. Clean Carbon out when the groups open up. Strip copper and refoul the bore when cleaning the carbon alone doesn't tighten it back up.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

More barrels are shot out by improper cleaning then actually being fired... I've gone 300-500rds without cleaning a barrels anymore than a bore snake with some frog lube or Hoppe's on it. I normally only do that if I know the rifle is going to sit for a few weeks. Clean Carbon out when the groups open up. Strip copper and refoul the bore when cleaning the carbon alone doesn't tighten it back up.

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Thanks again!! I will implement your cleaning regiment... as always, thanks for the info!!

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Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter

Here's my recent findings on HBN coated bullets (143 ELDX)... As ya'll probably know by now, my 260 rem is now assembled and I've been breaking the barrel in and trying to find "my load" for it recently (130 rounds now).

My first 100 rounds down the barrel where "naked" bullets... the last time I went to the range I shot a total of 50 rounds (had some fantastic groups with that batch of reloads). I went home after that string and foamed my bore as usual... Even after a 50 shot string and a 24 hour foam treatment, I barely had any blue come out from copper fouling.

Went to the range again this last weekend (I HBN the entire box of bullets) with some other loads to try out.... Shot a total of 30 rounds and with only a couple "good groups"... Went home and foamed the bore as usual for 24 hours.... Ran a patch down the barrel and had a river of blue coming out the end of the barrel!!!! It was as bad as my 270 Savage barrel was....

I don't know why this is happening.... Everything I read about HBN says it should reduce copper fouling, not exaggerate it... Has anybody else experienced this?

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I use HBN and it seems to reduce copper fouling quite a bit.
Your groups will change with HBN as your velocity may have dropped enough that you will need to add powder to get back into your node. I required roughly 1/2 gr more of RL26 with 143 ELD-X to bring it back to grouping well.

LoneWolf
I clean after about 100 rounds, I will have to try to resist the urge to clean at 100 and see what happens when I stretch it to a couple hundred or more. Will try your method of cleaning.
" Clean Carbon out when the groups open up. Strip copper and refoul the bore when cleaning the carbon alone doesn't tighten it back up."

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Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter

Thanks LoneWolf,

So even WIPE-OUT is hard on Barrels?

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SageRat

I collect old milsurp rifles and many of them have frosted and pitted bores from corrosive primers. And nothing cleans and removes carbon and copper better than foam bore cleaner.

Below a 1943 .303 No.4 Enfield rifle that had foam bore cleaner that was left soak overnight.

The most important thing to remember about foam bore cleaner is it does not and can not cause any bore wear or damage. Meaning more firearms are damaged by improper cleaning with cleaning rods than any other reason. (spare the rod and spoil the bore)

http://i.imgur.com/p59rhnP.jpg

And below is a bore scope photo of a new Savage button rifled bore that is rougher than my pitted and frosted milsurp bores.

Both my milsurp rifles and new button rifled bores will "eat" a copper bore brush and give you a false copper reading.

http://i.imgur.com/GpTCke2.jpg

Below a custom made hand lap barrel.

http://i.imgur.com/S82Lb6S.jpg

I clean my rifles with foam bore cleaner every time I shoot my rifles, and shoot a few fowler shots when I go back to the range.

Most people do tend to over clean their rifles "BUT" one shot of foam bore cleaner after each range trip without using a bore brush does no harm to the bore.

Bottom line, a rough bore can strip the copper from the bullet and build up in the bore with each shot. And in my opinion cleaning your rifle wasn't your problem.

There are some modern copper clears out, Bore Tech eliminator is one. Its a sublet approach that is no haz and non toxic.

I have cleaned up old military barrels to where they gleam with it (and Carbon Killer 2000 thought the Bore Tech has a carbon cleaner component as well so it gets used first.)

I have yet to see real evidence that other than bored soldiers using steel rods from the front of a rifle cleaning does any harm.

Me? I don't want a big build up of carbon, so I clean after each shooting session (50 shots per rifle or more) . If its under 30, no.

What is funny is you ask top shooters what they do and not one of them agrees on the right way.

We launch a copper slug down the barrel at 2500 to 3500 fps and we think a coated rod is going to wear out steel?

Most copper solvents such as Sweets and the like are ammonia based, which is why the manufacturer recommends not leaving it in the bore for more than 15 minutes or so. That time limit has nothing to do with it potentially damaging the bore, but instead has everything to do with how long it will take the ammonia to evaporate resulting in the copper re-solidifying in the bore.

Can't comment on the newer foam cleaners as I've never used them. I've used Shooters Choice in the distant past, and for the last 10-12 years or so I've been using RB-17 gel as my bore cleaner of choice. Does a great job of removing copper and carbon buildup, and since it's a gel it stays on the brush so a little goes a long way. Unfortunately it appears RB-17 is no longer in business so when this bottle runs out I guess I'm going to have to start looking for something new.

Thanks for the added information guys.... All I know is that I shot naked bullets and had very little copper fouling. HBN covered.... I had a truck load of copper fouling.... I don't know why it did that, but I'm going back to naked... hopefully it's not too late, as Lonewolf said.

I don't use brushes much, and if I do, I use the nylon brush ones. Just patches, and I use a Tipton Carbon fiber cleaning rod with an Ultra jag.