When to replace a barrel

I've had a Savage Model 12 in .223 since 2004, I've shot it pretty regularly and prbably have in the neighborood of 1800 rounds through the barrel. I recently was able to find a supply of .223 69 gr SMK's that I try to shoot exclusively (until recently they've been a bear to find) and reloaded some and re-started some accuracy shots to fine tune some loads. More for my personal experience, the rifle has always been a shooter. Back in the day (severla years ago) I would regulary shoot 3 shot groups either all holes touching and some even same holing it. The rifle is a dream and I've always loved it. THe past few weeks though I re-zero'd it (put new Leupold Mk 4 rings on it) and have been shooting my normal 100m range and the best group I've been able to get is .71". Normally that would be great but I know what the rifle is capable of. I shot at least ten more three shot groups to make sure it wasn;t the shooter (and it still could be for sure) but upon closer inspection of the barrel I did notice some minor pitting in the rifling that I could see with the naked eye and a really bright light in the bore. The barrel is a stock varmit contour 1-9 Rifling, recessed crown, I cannot see any damge to the crown just some bling worn off from the firing and cleaning.

I am thinking of replacing the barrel with a McGowen, Savage varmit contour SS barrel in 1-9 twist. I'll of course keep shooting mine to see if the groups tighten up as I am controlling the reloading pretty tightly. This is my favorite rifle and has always shot great, I'd hate to imaging it not shooting like it used to. The current set up for information purposes is; Savage 12 in .223 Rem. varmit contour barrel 1-9 twist, McMillen A-5 stock, Leupold Mk 4 rings, SWFA SS 16X scope

Apologize for the length just wanted to get as much info out there as possible.

Thanks,

Pitting is never good in a barrel. Maybe it could be set back and rechambered. Barring that, you really can't go wrong with a McGowan.

Yeah when I saw the pitting my heart sank, it is in the 1/3 of the barrel closest to the muzzle, not a lot but enough that I noticed it. I've always taken care to clean and lube the rifle, I just think some of the humid summers we have may have allowed some moisture to form in the barrel, it's the only conclusion I can think of. Form what I've read the McGowan barrels are first rate and I like that they have the "ready to ship" barrels on their store front website. Since what I want to install is nothing exceptional and they say they have it ready to ship in 1 week I am leaning to going that route.

What bullet where you shooting before this? I do believe that 69gr bullets are at the heavy end of the spectrum for what a 1 in 9" barrel can stabilize. Also, did you switch any other components in your mix? Now, how heavily did you clean the barrel? Do you think a couple fowling shots would help "fill in" the pitting? But my guess is that the pitting is not helping you.

If you do decide to rebarrel it, look into getting a 1 in 8" or 1 in 7" twist so you can shoot the heavies if long range is what you're after. If its varmints and you want to shoot the 50gr bullets or so, go with the 1 in 9". Also, check with Jim at NSS. He usually has varmint contour barrels in stock from Shilen or Criterion. He's a great guy to deal with.

I have mainly shot the 69 gr SMK's in this rifle. I started with 55 gr Hornady A-Max's but wanted into the longer ranges and started shooting the 69 grainers about 2005. I kept pretty meticulous notes on the load development. This rifle has always stabilized the 69 Gr SMK's excellently. I even just did the rifle twist calculator on McGowen's website and using the dimensions of the 69 Gr SMK got a recommended twist rate of 1-10.1" i had a little trouble believing that but the 1-9" has always worked well. If I could find some pics I snapped of the better shot groups some were only 1 1/2 diameter of bullet wide at 100m. At 100m I if the groups were more than 1/2" I was surprised. The rifle shot great and the load I developed worked for me. When I could no longer find the Sierra's I had to use the Hornady 68 gr match bullets and they were a hair longer, their ogive is different than Sierra, but I had them shooting the same as the Sierras pretty quick. I am using the same components as before, I have a near endless supply of 5.56 brass and can be picky so I weigh it and sort if by weight. I neck size for the rifle, use IMR 3031 exclusively, Remington SR primers, no change in components. The ONLY change is I measured the throat and found a very long throat. So I experimented with bullet seating depth. When I moved the bullet out (can't remember at this moment the measurement) the farthest I ever had I had respectable groups for 100M with the group size explainable by my error. I only loaded 20 of these and shot all of them with decent groups once I settled my breathing and trigger pull down. What I did next was load several with the bullets seated few thousandths deeper, several more yet deeper just to see the effect off of the lands (I posted a question here and got some solid answers) and that is when I noticed the groups not getting tighter. Now I'm still farther out in seating depth than I loaded them 2 years ago but the accuracy seems to be suffering. Hence the bore inspection and noticing the minor pitting which I know can't be good for accuracy.

I had a M4 (14.5: bbl) in 1-7 (same as military twist on M16/M4) and thought I'd go 1-7 on the replacement for the Savage but that rate leaves little versatility. The SMK's are not suitable for hunting so I stall wanted the option of a hunting/varmint bullet. The 1-9" seems to be doing fine and I agree that I should go no higher in weight that 69 gr and do not plan to, I love my load, I may tweak it but I spent a lot of time and resources developing the load for this rifle. I am a couple months off (read Holidays) from making this leap and will certainly research this the best rate and everything before I make the purchase.

While I'm rambling what is everyone's opinion on Chrome-Moly vs Stainless? I am leaning toward stainless as not to have to worry about issues like this again and durability. I do take care of my weapons that is why I am bothered by this.

Again apologies for length just trying to give as much info as possible.

On the SS vs. CM front, it seems to be a majority opinion in many circles that there is no accuracy or barrel life difference, just a price and corrosion resistance difference.

The 9 twist stainless barrel is probably the best choice per your comments above.

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and have been shooting my normal 100m range and the best group I've been able to get is .71

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Your above quote is the reason I responded to your thread. The same thing happened to me and I couldn't explain it. My groups opened up to about .750 moa @ 100. It seemed like all of a sudden. I thought it was me or something to do with the scope. My rifle was as accurate as yours. I use my 223 for practice, so it had a lot of rounds down the tube.

Then one day a bell rang in my "brain". I realize how many rounds I had down this barrel. I decided to change the barrel and with my first few groups, I had my ole rifle back. I was one happy person as this is one of the oldest rifles I have.

Just my .02, Dennis

Their going to go, it's just a matter of when.

Thanks for the reply, I was scratching my head. I know there is plenty of shooter error so I shot enough to get my groove down and had the feel I needed to know I could send roiunds to the same point of impact. The rifle has always been a dream. I'm going to rebarrel it's just a matter of when now.

How long do you take between shots.My concern would be that you could overheat the barrel which would cause the barrel to quit way earlier than necessary.

I normall take three shot groups fired in succession followed by a roughly 2 min wait (in this cooler weather) before shooting another three shot group. I normally fire 20 to 25 rounds in that manner before either taking a long break or calling it for the session. I am blessed with the fact that I have a 100 meter range on my property so I can develop loads and fire right there.

What are some good suppliers for Savage parts? From perusing the web and this site I have checked out SSS, McGowen, Evolution, and a couple others I can't remember right now. I want to purchase a new bolt handle (in the tactical style) and just read about fluted bolts, I've seen them on bolt guns before but they just seem so cool, not sure if they actually serve any purpose though.

1800 rounds in a 223 is not many at all. If i read your first post right you changed rings and scope and then your groups opened up. It could be a parallax problem, that would sure account for the group opening up. It could be the lot of bullets you just got or maybe you started on a different lot of powder. Seating depth changed (bullet lot again), throat moved a few thousandths (seating depth again). 223 barrel should be good for anywhere from 4000 rounds to excess of 10,000 but i would look for 4-6000 as the change barrel place.

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Originally Posted by earl39

1800 rounds in a 223 is not many at all. If i read your first post right you changed rings and scope and then your groups opened up. It could be a parallax problem, that would sure account for the group opening up. It could be the lot of bullets you just got or maybe you started on a different lot of powder. Seating depth changed (bullet lot again), throat moved a few thousandths (seating depth again). 223 barrel should be good for anywhere from 4000 rounds to excess of 10,000 but i would look for 4-6000 as the change barrel place.

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Earl, I agree with your above statement.

Also per the OP, the barrel is 10 years old and there may be other contributing factors as well as stated below.

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Yeah when I saw the pitting my heart sank, it is in the 1/3 of the barrel closest to the muzzle, not a lot but enough that I noticed it. I've always taken care to clean and lube the rifle, I just think some of the humid summers we have may have allowed some moisture to form in the barrel, it's the only conclusion I can think of

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I too agree that 1800 rounds isn't a lot. I've shot more through my service rifle on deployment. The scope is the same only the rings were changed. There have been long periods where the rifle was stored my major concern I was rust causing the pitting.

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There have been long periods where the rifle was stored my major concern I was rust causing the pitting.

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And correct me if wrong, you barrel is a chrome moly barrel?

I also am interested in everyone's comments concerning pitting or any other damage from storing chrome moly barrels for a long period.

Dennis

Yes, stock savage barrel. When I stored it I kept it oiled with a light coat of oil, pulled it out every once an a while to check on it.

I would suggest when storing a CM barrel for long periods to clean it to bare metal and then apply a layer of really good grease inside the barrel as oil will tend to run off faster than grease will slide off. As pointed out pitting could cause the groups to open up but you may have to foul the bore a little more as a lot of factory barrels like to be dirty. Changing the barrel out with 3/4 moa groups will give you a new barrel but will not ensure anything better. Unless you are wanting to shoot nats off ant peckers i would stay with what you have. $300 is a lot for the little gain unless you are shooting competition. JMHO

If you decide to get a new barrel, consider a 1:8 twist. Not a "radical" twist like a 1:7 but good for shooting even Berger 75gr VLD's which are a huge improvement over the lighter bullets. It will also shoot the 55gr "common" bullets fine. I have shot Hornady 75gr HPBT (match) bullets from my Savage 10PC since I got it and it has stabilized the 75gr match bullets fine even though it has a 1:9.25 twist and only 20" in length. But it will NOT shoot the Bergers... Needs more twist...

If my factory barrel had not been so good, I would have re-barreled to a 1:8 stainless barrel a long time ago...

Happy Thanksgiving!! I stayed away from anything heavier that 69 grain due to warnings about stabilization (or failure of) of heavier bullets in the twist I have. I will research hard on the twist. I realize that shooting 3/4 MOA isn't bad and I know I have to do my part and do contribute to poor accuracy a lot more than the rifle and barrel. However, knowing the fact that the rifle is capable and has shot better just sticks with me. Now I 'm not running right out to change one as it is a cost and I have many other pressing issues, that's why I figured I'd get some answers from this knowledge base.

I just like punching paper with this rifle and strive to get the best groups as I possibly can, sort of like my own personal golf game! I shoot at small animals with it but mainly target shooting. I have access to a 600m range and plan on hitting that when I can. My biggest goal is just to have it shooting as best as it can shoot. Knowing there's a flaw just bugs me is all (and even more that I probably contributed to it by not checking it more often).

Well having or even just thinking you have a problem with the barrel is like trying to catch bass with a bait you have no faith in. Even if you do you always think you could have done better. I would say try reworking the load then think about changing the barrel. No matter which way you decide to go i wish you good luck with it.

From my experience, barrel cleaning is the cause to all most all barrel wear problems. The thing is there is a lot of schools of thought on this subject, but what works for you is what you want to find. The thing is there is a find line, if you don't clean the barrel properly you will get wear, and if you don't watch what your doing you can cause barrel wear. I would say that a life of a 223 is far beyond 1800 rounds. Unless your using a bore scope, what your seeing with your naked eye, can be deceiving. The pitting you see could very well be something else such as a carbon deposit, or other things. But even if there is pitting that doesn't mean the barrel is shot, I have had a few WWII surplus Mausers with dark pitted bores, that shot like a house of fire. There is a lot of belief that the crown is a crucial part of a barrel and I would say that it is not. With that said give the barrel a good cleaning and see if it come back and shoots.

I have three sets of of loads worked up sitting on my bench ready to try out. Trying different seating depths. One my original depth and two others. I am by no means giving up on the set up I have I'll gladly take the practice and get back in the shooting groove.

I guess I was always taught to clean after shooting and that was reinforced in my military experience as well. I know some people who shoot and then put their piece away till next time, to each his own I guess. I always clean from the breech end and lately have been using a bore snake. I gave it a good cleaning the other night before I posted this thread. Brush, hoppe's, patches, brush, and so on. Got the patch white and then a light coat of oil. I've shot it since then but wanted to try and get it get it clean (not that I make it a habit of keeping it dirty).

This rifle has been a work in progress since I've bought it. It's always shot exceptionally well but I've kept doing upgrades that I've wanted. I'll keep shooting it just cause and a new barrel has been in my long range plans. I understand the fishing analogy and now this sticks in the back of my brain. I'll just have to focus on the fundamentals and make sure I'm doing my part as see how it all plays out. I wish there was a way to get a decent picture of what I am seeing to show everyone. Oh well, still many thanks for the words of wisdom.

Hope everyone had a blessed day and their fill of food :)

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Originally Posted by nazbom

I guess I was always taught to clean after shooting and that was reinforced in my military experience as well. I know some people who shoot and then put their piece away till next time, to each his own I guess. I always clean from the breech end and lately have been using a bore snake. I gave it a good cleaning the other night before I posted this thread. Brush, hoppe's, patches, brush, and so on. Got the patch white and then a light coat of oil. I've shot it since then but wanted to try and get it get it clean (not that I make it a habit of keeping it dirty). :)

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After this statement, I would be more than willing to bet you have a carbon problem, and maybe a few others as well. If you are seeing accuracy issues this is what I would lay the culprit on. At least your not afraid of the brush, and that is a good thing. IMO throw away the bore snake, only thing you will do with it is at best clean out light soft carbon. Hoppes has a great small and that is about it. Are you using a bore guide? Are you using a 1 piece rod? without these two things you will trash the bore of your rifle, it will be seen at 6 o'clock in the bore. Cheap multi-piece rods will reek havoc. You may want to do some further thought and research into rifle cleaning.

Unfortunately no matter how good of a solvent you use, or cleaning method you will need to use a light abrasive product to remove the hard carbon, but use of lower end solvents, and non bronze brushes will make this need much more great. The products I am talking about are JB bore paste, ISSO Bore cleaner or Remington 40X cleaner. This will remove the hard carbon and will not hurt the barrel. I clean my barrels after every 7 to 10 shots with top end bore solvent and bronze brushes, and usually after 100 rounds I will feel the patch's get "Grabby" and tight in the bore, this is hard carbon I am feeling, A quick cleaning with JB, and the patch's push smooth again. In heavy neglected barrels I will use JB on a old brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool.

P.S.
Something else to consider is to maintain the throat of your rifle you may want to use a 1/2 caliber bigger bronze brush, and just insert it into the throat and twist it.

I will agree with Pat on this one for the most part. Pat shoots benchrest so he cleans more while i shoot F-Class and may have 200 rounds down the tube before cleaning. Hoppe's is a decent get the soft stuff out cleaner but to get the copper and carbon that builds up under it you do need something stronger. I would suggest Sweets 7.62 or Montana extreme 50BMG. I use the 50BMG and nylon brushes until i notice it taking a long time to come clean then a brass brush helps knock the hard carbon loose. The one piece rod and bore guide are a must with good patches not the cheap synthetic ones. We all have out favorite things to use to clean the bore with and a bore snake ain't it. At best it is a fast get the dirt or loose powder, in the case of a pulled bullet, out so you can keep hunting tool.

I have a Dewey's .17 Cal one piece rod and another .20 cal 1 piece rod both are extremely long. I can clean from the breach all of the way out of the muzzle and the handle will still not touch the rear of the action. As for solvent, you're right the "hardest" I use is Hoppe's #9 and I Copper. I have normally used the brush in the cleaning process as I have always had a hunch the bore snakes didn't quite clean deep enough, good for a wipe down but that's about it. This past year I may have shot the rifle a half dozen times and that is when I focused on a quick swipe with the snake. I have looked for a good solvent mostly by internet and sites like this. I have heard pro's and con's for all and was sold on the sweet's 7.62 solvent until I read some argument on some board about something and erosion or blah blah. I realize there are better solvents that what I use I just figured hitting it with a brush and patches till they come out clean and run smooth, other solvents would take longer (and things like copper build up and etc. wouldn't be as easy to remove). I understand what you are saying about "feeling" the patch and feeling rough spots and resistance. Maybe I'll make the purchase of some decent solvent, any recommendations? I saw the brands you all mentioned but what would you recommend.

As for shooting, I would like to break in to the world of shooting competitively. I know next to nothing though however about where and what steps to take. I shot on my units rifle team in the service many moons ago but that is not the same I understand, and when I belonged to my father's gun club I shot in an M1 league that taught me a lot of things ( I was 17 and grouped with three distinguished Vietnam vets who could really shoot) I got schooled hard. As for now I'll keep shooting around here dialing in my dope, working on my loads and getting the consistency I strive for...

Meanwhile, I am still developing or refining the loads for this and will work on getting that barrel scrubbed clean. I know that anything harder than the barrel rubbing the barrel during cleaning is not good, rods rubbing rifling, throat and muzzle (crown) are no go's. I will have some time this weekend to throw some rounds down range. I'll report back. Also, I may post in the reloading section on what I have been doing to develop the load with seating depth to get some input there as well.

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Originally Posted by nazbom

I have a Dewey's .17 Cal one piece rod and another .20 cal 1 piece rod both are extremely long. I can clean from the breach all of the way out of the muzzle and the handle will still not touch the rear of the action.

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Lets break this apart step by step. My first recommendation is get a proper fitting cleaning rod. If you have a 22 cal get a 22 cal rod. The thing is using a 22 cal rod to clean a 6mm will have no problem, but the ultra thin rods like a 17 or 20 are more likely to stress, and bend. There is no mention of a bore guide. Cleaning without a bore guide you might as well, throw the barrel in the trash, because your essentially doing the same thing. Bore guides are cheap and last a life time. I like Possum Hollows guides the best.
https://www.possumhollowproducts.com/

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Originally Posted by nazbom

I have looked for a good solvent mostly by internet and sites like this. I have heard pro's and con's for all and was sold on the sweet's 7.62 solvent until I read some argument on some board about something and erosion or blah blah. I realize there are better solvents that what I use I just figured hitting it with a brush and patches till they come out clean and run smooth, other solvents would take longer (and things like copper build up and etc. wouldn't be as easy to remove). I understand what you are saying about "feeling" the patch and feeling rough spots and resistance. Maybe I'll make the purchase of some decent solvent, any recommendations? I saw the brands you all mentioned but what would you recommend.

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First off, don't believe everything you read, there is a lot of regurgitated miss information out there. Nothing beats actual experience. Sweets is a great cleaner, and the warning is on the Sweets Bottle not to let it sit in the bore more than 15 minutes. I don't understand why this warning is on the bottle. I know I have left it sit in bores overnight, and never seen any damage. I can say I have never seen a documented case where the bore was ever damaged with Sweets. If you use Sweets, or other heavy ammonia based Solvents make sure you rinse your brush out after use in alcohol or carb cleaner. There is many good cleaners out there. My first choice is Butch bore shine, My second Choice would be Shooter Choice, My third would be Sweets, and then Montana extreme. Other good solvents are TM solution, bore tech, and so on. For moly coated bullets I prefer RB17 or Blue wonder. Even with these cleaners you need to get JB Bore paste, available through Brownells, and other sellers. If you want something local Wal-Mart has Remington 40x cleaner, and it is a liquid form of JB bore paste.

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Originally Posted by nazbom

As for shooting, I would like to break in to the world of shooting competitively. I know next to nothing though however about where and what steps to take.

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well first you need to find out what is available to you locally. Ask around the area, and at ranges what kind of match's are shot locally. Go onto internet sites, and ask what match are local to you. The thing is I would not gear up to shoot F class if the nearest and only match is 500 miles away. I shoot Benchrest because one I love the competition, two I am located in the heart of Benchrest country. I would love to shoot F class but there is not match's even remotely close to me. With Benchrest I have 5 or more clubs within a couple of hours drive to me. With that said find out what is close. then when you find that go out and observe, don't bring any equipment. If you can find a mentor, that is the best advise anyone can give you. See what equipment is being used, ask questions. More than likely they will bring you in with open arms. After this then start collecting items, and start shooting. Don't get discouraged, you may find that shooting match's is mush harder than you would imagine.

Good luck

Nazbom,
I looked at your signature and it say your from Spotsy VA. I could not find that town but Spotsylvania VA, I can find, and I would say I thin you in a good place for shooting. I am Fairly sure that this is IBS score Benchrest shooting country. check out this http://www.international-benchrest.com/ On that site you will find contact information under the webmaster of a good friend of mine Dick Grosbier. He can tell you of match's in that area.

No I don't have a bore guide and I should've known better. I was taught and understand that nothing should be rubbing the bore, it's just not good. I'll get some good bore cleaner this weekend, my dad uses the shooters choice in his arsenal of cleaning gear, I have some of their products. I have a one piece 22 cal rod I just figured that the smaller diameter rod was less chance of "rubbing" the bore the Dewey's are plastic coated I know but that was my intention. Granted there are/were times where I used the 22 cal rod to muscle some tighter cleaning equipment (patches thicker cut to "scrub" better) and finish up with the smaller dia rod. So it's not that much of a stretch to use the 22 rod exclusively.

For some reason, close to me (25 mile radius) there are really no decent shooting clubs. there are some Isaac Walton leagues but their ranges are paltry at best, just a place to shoot. Most competition around me is shotgun sports and archery related. I work on a military installation as a civilian and there is a "gun club" there that allows access to the ranges based on availability. I'll need to check into them and see what if anything they offer in the terms of events or competitions. I've done internet searches for close matches but it's been s few years and nothing jumped out at me. I wish I had the property to start my own, but I don't.

I'm going to shoot the loads I have worked up this afternoon, I'm gonna run to store (and brave black Friday) to get some bore cleaner. Our local outdoor sporting goods store carries a pretty good selection and I'll take the list you recommended and see what they have comparatively. I'm also going to look for a bronze bore brush and give her a good scrubbing today. I'll also inspect the bore to see if I still see that suspect spot. I really wish you guys could see what I'm seeing.

Again thank you...

Yep Spotsylvania Va I live near Lake Anna if you l

Yep Spotsylvania Va I live near Lake Anna if you look on a map. South to Richmond has more clubs and north to Fairfax (but that's a different world!).

Please humor me.

Shine a light at an angle across the muzzle while looking at the lands & grooves of the rifling. Is there ANY color at all? Tan, brown, copper, blue, or ????

I bet, a couple things are going on here. #1 - you have copper in the bore. #2 - you have a carbon ring just past the chamber.

If you have ANY color, other than bare steel at the muzzle, go clean.

Everybody has their cleaning regimen. IF, you have any color in your barrel, the method currently being utilized is not working.


I use stiff PLASTIC bristle brushes (Montana Extreme or similar brand), Hoppes #9, cleaning jag with Top Shot patches, & a bore guide.

Sometimes, it is necessary to "get after" a barrel that has copper or continues to copper or carbon foul. For this, I use Montana Extreme Copper Cream or Flitz metal polish (dilluted with 10 wt oil). Using a plastic bristle brush, equipped with your choice of copper cream, start pushing the brush through the bore. In extreme cases, I have chucked the cleaning rod in a slow speed cordless drill - Yes...a few people just cringed when they read this. But...read on...


Regardless if the barrel is bare, coated with oil, or the next best chemical known to mankind...deposits are left in the barrel like this:

Trigger pull, ignition occurrs, naked copper or coated copper bullet is released from the shell, engages the rifling as pressure builds more, bullet travels the length of the bore (copper), followed by hot gas, burning hot gas, carbon, & unburnt powder.

What happens next? Exact same as above, but now we added layer of each to what is existing. So, now we have copper, carbon, & unburnt powder on top of another layer of C, C, & UP.

We are trying to remove the layers of fouling that is on the surfaces with one miracle method, chemical, or brush. Sorry...not going to happen. Going to take hard work, patience, and the right method.

I am sure there are other methods out there that are better than mine, but I know what works for me.

You might want to think about this next year, it should be a manageable drive for you .
http://www.accurateshooter.com/ibsbe...h-score-shoot/

Just bought the shooters choice copper cleaner and a container of shooters choice m7 bore cleaner. Headed home to clean it and shoot. Will report ill shine the light too

MC#7 and Copper Solvent by shooters choice my info was wrong above

I would definitely clean good. Also, over the last 25+years gunsmithing, I have run into the same thing with centerfire and ML rifles. If a twist rate is working, but at the edge of where it should stabilize a particular weight bullet, when wear sets in, or extreme cleanining is needed, accuracy falls off dramatically. I had a buddy with .223 savage pencil barrel ,9 twist that was a shooter, after 12 years and 3000+ rounds, sporadic cleaning, it went to crap. He shot the 65HP and 68bthps. We cleaned it 6 times in a week till we got it clean, then I lapped the bore with 1400 lapping compound, cleaned again, got a lot of carbon our of throat, and it came back! Never shot the 68's as good, but the 65HP's were better than ever. He still shoots 55gr and 60, 65 gr's on chucks, crows and yotes, shoots right around 1/2 inch with either bullet. FYI!

So I cleaned it really good got some of the bluish green on the patches. Did the copper remover twice per the instructions, got the patches white. Then I went to shoot...

Something is definitely not right. I shot three different loads. Same powder and charge but three different seating depths. Each group shot at a different point of impact the groups were opened up. All were relatively the same size just under 1". This thing is definitely not shooting the way it used to at all and my frustration level is very high.

One thing I noted when I shined the light across the muzzle was that there appeared to be this silverish material or coloration in the grooves that went about 1-2 tenths of an inch into the barrel I hit it with a brush, solvent, cleaners and then tried and ental pick on it very gently to see if I could remove it at all. No dice. Not sure what it is but it's in a location I might be able to snap a photo. Right now I had to walk away a bit...

Just remember when all else fails you did change the rings. it might be they are not tight or they are putting the scope in a bind somehow.

Well, it is good you got the copper out, but I don't think that Copper is your problem, Copper is easy to remove, and you can do it with household ammonia. What you need to do it get the hard carbon out, and you need a JB bore paste, and a good liquid solvent like shooter choice MC#7.

If anything plug off the chamber of the barrel with something like an ear plug, fill the bore up with Shooter choice, and let it sit for some time. After a good cleaning you may have to season the barrel back in to get the barrel to shoot small groups. most Savage factory barrels don't settle down until they have 20 or so rounds down the tube. It is also not uncommon for POA to change with seating depth change.

I rechecked the rings after cleaning it earlier. They were still good and tight. I expextd some change with the different seating depths. Just trying to refine my load now I've got to figure out this darn issue. I'm gonna go clean from this afternoon's shoot and see how it looks.

Took a while, read this whole thread ........

You are not listening to the advice on an abrasive bore paste. It's been given many times by folks that KNOW what they are talking about. I am here to add to that message.

This is a barrel you are ready to throw away ........ what is the hang up?

I'm done

Three 44s

I'm working on the bore paste today. Didn't see that reply till later on after I did what I did yesterday. Will report back....

Not trying to upset anyone here and I appreciate all the advice I've been given. As a matter of fact I looked at ttackling he bore paste late last night.

I know this has been a long topic and I wanted to say that I appreciate the input and advice. I'm looking at this a completely different way now.

I'm looking up the bore paste options and IOSSO and JB pop up. The thing is I'm probably going to have to order this. I may run to Richmond later as there are some good shops there that should carry this. Either way, realizing the amount of time I've owned this and shot it, I should've done this sooner.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

The products I am talking about are JB bore paste, ISSO Bore cleaner or Remington 40X cleaner. This will remove the hard carbon and will not hurt the barrel. I clean my barrels after every 7 to 10 shots with top end bore solvent and bronze brushes, and usually after 100 rounds I will feel the patch's get "Grabby" and tight in the bore, this is hard carbon I am feeling, A quick cleaning with JB, and the patch's push smooth again. In heavy neglected barrels I will use JB on a old brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Even with these cleaners you need to get JB Bore paste, available through Brownells, and other sellers. If you want something local Wal-Mart has Remington 40x cleaner, and it is a liquid form of JB bore paste.

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When you work with JB or 40X, you want a tight fitting patch, and you want to burnish it through the bore. (Burnish = short strokes back and forth, going the entire length of the barrel.)

Here is a article a good friend of mine wrote, (Thomas "Speedy" Gonzales) and how he recommends use of Bore cleaners.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...hrest_Shooting

Remington 40x cleaner was developed by Benchrest shooting legend Ferris Pindell. (Father of the PPC cartridge.)
Here is a bit of fact
https://us-products.com/borepaste/

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and lately have been using a bore snake.

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I quit using my bore snakes a long time ago and only use them on hunting guns in emergency situations.

You have received a lot of good advice. Good Luck.

Dennis

Ok this will be my last post besides some pics if I can figure them out. Let me reiterate again the incredible wisdom I received. I cleaned with bore paste last night and shot today. It's back!! Tight groups with at least 2 of three touching at 100m! Thank you.

Now that I have the correct cleaning supplies. How often do you use the bore paste regimen?

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Originally Posted by nazbom

Now that I have the correct cleaning supplies. How often do you use the bore paste regimen?

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I clean my barrels after every 7 to 10 shots with top end bore solvent and bronze brushes, and usually after 100 rounds I will feel the patch's get "Grabby" and tight in the bore, this is hard carbon I am feeling, A quick cleaning with JB, and the patch's push smooth again.

P.S.
Something else to consider is to maintain the throat of your rifle you may want to use a 1/2 caliber bigger bronze brush, and just insert it into the throat and twist it.

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It is in the cards