package scope bases and rings and general help

Sorry for the detail, but I think it might be necessary to answer the question.

I've got a new model 11 Trophy Hunter XP in .308. This is the package with the Nikon Pro-Staff(ish) scope. The results so far are not good. This is the first rifle I've tried to zero myself, and I haven't done much high powered rifle shooting. Most of my rifle shooting is .22 LR and .223. I can consistently hit quarter sized targets at 50 yards with my good .22 off a bi-pod, so not all issues are shooter-caused.

I've put about 70 rounds through the rifle in two or three range trips. The bore has been cleaned after each trip.

After initially horrible results, I figured out the scope ring screws had worked loose. After tightening the screws, on the next trip I zeroed the scope shooting off a sled at 25 yards. I didn't measure the groups, but the three holes were nearly touching. I then moved out to 200 yards shooting off the bi-pod and some from the sled. Point of impact would vary from 3"-8" from point of aim. I did not measure a group, but I would guess it would be 4"-6". At the end of the shooting, I noticed my bi-pod attachment screw had loosened. I estimate wind on all trips to be 5-8 mph quartering.

I know flinching might be an issue, but I don't have a good way to check for it. The shots seem erratic rather than consistently off one direction or another. Also, elevation varies less than windage. At one point, four or five shots were within about 2" of elevation at 200 yards. With many of the shots the barrel is warm, but you can hold your hand on it.

I have used Federal American Whitetail 150 grain and PMC fmj 147 grain ammo. About 60 of the rounds have been the PMC. The Whitetail was all likely shot with loose rings.

I've dug around the threads here and know for the next trip I need to 1) confirm the barrel and tang are floating; 2) make sure everything stays tight; 3) ditch the sled and go with sandbags with the forward bag near the action screw; 4) shoot some of something like Sierra Match King 168 grain; 5) do some shooting at 100 yards; 6) experiment with a dirtier bore; and 7) shoot for groups rather than bullseyes.

I've also learned that I probably ought to eventually replace the factory bases and rings for the scope. My main question is should I keep tinkering with the rifle on the factory hardware or am I just wasting ammo shooting with the factory scope hardware?

Any other tips or suggestions would be much appreciated.

I don't think the rings and bases are THAT bad. Everything you said you plan to do is good. I would also suggest waiting 3 mins between shots to allow barrel to fully cool. It's overkill, but eliminate that possibility. Also, at 25 yards, I would expect them all to touch. There's a chance the reticles broke shooting from the sled. Keep us posted.

To rule out a flinch take someone with you or get another shooter to load your rifle for you never telling you if he put a round in or not. When you pull the trigger you will find out if you have a flinching problem.

The barrel seems to be floating fine, even on a bi-pod. The upper right part of the tang is tight to the stock though. Assuming a dis-assembly/re-assembly doesn't float the tang, is floating the tang accomplished by removing some stock material? Also, even though the barrel is floating, is it worthwhile to go ahead and take some material out around the barrel or is that better left alone? The stock is factory "tupperware."

I would remove material around the tang, but not the barrel channel. I'm thinking that will only make it more flimsy.

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Originally Posted by earl39

To rule out a flinch take someone with you or get another shooter to load your rifle for you never telling you if he put a round in or not. When you pull the trigger you will find out if you have a flinching problem.

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^^THIS

That is how my old shooting coach used to do it. It only works if someone else loads the gun, because if you do it, you will "know" when it's coming and it won't count.

You pretty much covered the list of suggestions I would have made. Remember that consistency is key to shooting. My first gut instinct on this is the greatest offenders are likely the lead sled (could have damaged the scope) and the bi-pod (especially on the flimsy tupperware factory stock on the Trophy Hunter....the bi-pod is more enemy than friend....sand bags are far better for target shooting). Pick an ammo you want to shoot and stick with it long enough to see if your rifle likes it (not all rifles like the same diet).

I am not a huge fan of the Weaver bases and rings they provide on the package 11 THXP ...but they will get the ob done with proper installation. I also have no real complaints with the package Nikon Scope (except for the fact that I generally dislike BDC scopes). I have an 11 THXP in 7-08 (left handed) I bought awhile back because it was there...it was used, but I bet it had less than 20 rounds through it. I've shot it a couple times with factory ammo and it shoots under 1" @ 100 with factory Hornady ammo...I have yet to really tinker with the rifle, but I certainly can't complain about it.

Any suggestions on how to tell if the scope is damaged?

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Originally Posted by cttb

Any suggestions on how to tell if the scope is damaged?

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Test the rifle at a closer range...25-50 yards, if it produces consistent groups...it's likely OK. You can also check the tracking....I have an X marked on the wall in my reloading room just for this....remove the bolt and point it at the "X" and then see if you can observe the reticle movement up/down left/right while looking through the scope and adjusting it.

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Originally Posted by cttb

Any suggestions on how to tell if the scope is damaged?

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Only thing I can think of is to try a different scope. If the rifle shoots okay, with another one, the scope is bad. Then call Nikon, see what they say about it. As EMT has said, I have the same scope, it's not that bad, nor are the rings and mounts. Unless the rings or mounts were lose, it could not be to blame unless broken.

EDIT: He already did shoot at close range, EMT. But try again with tight mounts and rings, I guess. Then try a different scope.

Also, when shooting at close range, shoot a group of 3... move scope maybe 20 clicks up (or down) and 20 left (or right). shoot another group, then move the scope back to your original setting,,, see what you get. It should be somewhere near your original group. Also, sometime cheaper scopes need to be shot 1x or "bumped" good to set after moving reticles. They don't always move well. If you shoot 1x, adjust the scope, shoot again, it might not have moved all the way until after the shot. You end up chasing your tail. It's not a big deal if you plan to eventually "set it and forget it".

So, shoot a group, then move the reticles. Shoot another group, paying most attention to the 2nd and 3rd shot each time.

When trying to return to the original setting, as I said earlier, don't expect perfection with this scope, but it should be close.

I didn't era the whole thread so this may have been answere but It's almost 99.9% certainly your rings/bases. I bought a model 10 trophy hunter XP in 308 and rings were working loose about every 20-30 rounds. I took it all apart to locktite everything and 2 of the 4 ring cap screws were bent and the front recoil crossbar was gouging the cross slot in the base. Very cheaply made, if you google you can even find stories of people with bigger caliber having trouble keeping the rings tight even with locktite applied. I have a set of Warne maxima rings inbound, for all said about $50 (midwayusa has an optics/ mounts sale right now). Talley makes some good budget mount that has the ring and mount in one piece so one less place of failure. That nikon on these rifles is actually really good glass for the price, they started using a bushnell at some point that most people seem to think was garbage but the nikon is gtg

Tex, I have bought a bunch of older, used 110's this past winter, all of them had these cheap bases and the package scopes and many of them DID have gouge marks in them as you describe. I did not bother to consider why they were like that, I just assumed they were installed carelessly. What you say makes sense.
So, I would say replace the bases and rings, but I still think there is more than that going on here. There's too much inconsistency, even at short range. That could be it, though. Regardless, there's no point in keeping the originals.

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Originally Posted by cttb

I've dug around the threads here and know for the next trip I need to 1) confirm the barrel and tang are floating; 2) make sure everything stays tight; 3) ditch the sled and go with sandbags with the forward bag near the action screw; 4) shoot some of something like Sierra Match King 168 grain; 5) do some shooting at 100 yards; 6) experiment with a dirtier bore; and 7) shoot for groups rather than bullseyes.

I've also learned that I probably ought to eventually replace the factory bases and rings for the scope. My main question is should I keep tinkering with the rifle on the factory hardware or am I just wasting ammo shooting with the factory scope hardware?

Any other tips or suggestions would be much appreciated.

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The only thing I would add to your list is to loctite all the base screws and ring screws with blue (non-permanent) loctite. Nikon is a good scope (even the prostaff) and the factory rings should be fine as long as the screws aren't loosening on you. You can also put a dab of light colored nail polish or something similar and run it across each screwhead onto what it's screwing into it. After it dries, this will give you a good indication something has moved. It may look a little tacky but it's a good way to rule that out as a problem (and you don't have to use a super noticable amount).

What are you using the rifle for? For factory ammo, I've had good luck with the Nosler Trophy stuff in my 30-06 if you're looking for the heavier loads. It's pricey though and made for hunting. If you're only looking for small groups, something loaded with the Sierra Matchkings ought to do it (but it will still be pricey). This video will open up your eyes to why rifles tend to "like" some ammo more than others (harmonics): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVskVeM

I decided to go back to square one before putting any more $$ downrange. I floated the tang. I also decided to go with a new scope base. I ordered the DNZ Game Reaper and some blue Loctite. I'm going to bed the mount with JB Weld and re-zero off sandbags.

I attempted to return the reticules to their factory zero. I turned the dials all the way one way, then all the way the other way while counting the clicks. I then went back the other way for half the number of clicks and then lined the arrow on the dial to the dot on the turret. Let me know if that's harebrained for some reason or another.

When I pulled the scope off, I observed a couple of interesting things. First, it looked like two of the ring screws had loosened since I last torqued them. There was an abraded area on the channels in the bases that looked like the screws that tighten the rings to the bases had caused. The screws fixing the bases to the action weren't real tight either. Finally, there was quite a bit of oil or CLP underneath the bases. I read about it creeping under on here. Either the guy who mounted the bases at the factory lubed under them on purpose or that stuff creeps like crazy.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. It's much appreciated. I'll let you know how it goes at the range.

Mount the scope in the DNZ mount and shoot from sandbag front and rear. Front bag under the front screw rear bag will help steady. Then post up some pics of the new group. My .270 went from 4-6" groups @ 100 yards to just over 1'" and touching groups when I found the ammo it likes. Changing nothing but the rings and mounts with DNZ game reaper.

well, that's what Tex was talking about... the mount was marred b/c the crossbolt was hitting it. That would not happen if it was holding tight. You might have the solution, there, just as he had said.

Centering the reticles as you said was fine, but maybe pointless if you're not using shims to bring them to point of impact. You'll just end up moving them again when sighting it in. But, there's no harm in the exercise. Keep us posted.

Taking the scope down was interesting. The way the rings mounted to the bases just didn't look like it would hold. The cleat that held the ring to the base did not fit cleanly with the rail on the base. I could see how it might move a little from recoil.

+ 1 on the locktite. If the rings and bases have been damaged you need to get new ones. (I think I read that you did) one way to tell if your reticle is broken is to set the rifle up in a sturdy holder or on sand bags where it will stand by itself and tap the scope while looking thru it. If the cross hairs move (shake) the reticle is broken. This may not be a good test for all brands but worth a test.

Another thing about scope adjustment. When you adjust the scope go twice as many clicks as you need and then go back half. So if you need 5 clicks down, adjust 10 clicks down and 5 back up. This will help if the reticle is sticking as described before.

BW

I went to the range today after floating the tang, installing the DNZ Game Reaper mount correctly, and re-installing the scope correctly. I am now the proud owner of some blue Loctite and a F.A.T. wrench (and a stripped front action screw due to a cheap hex wrench, but that's a different story). The DNZ one-piece mount took the total mount and ring pieces from eight from the factory mounts to just three.

At 25 yards, two holes shot off the bore sighting were almost touching. Two shots shot off the new zero were almost in the same hole. These four were shot with 150 grain Hornady American Whitetail.

At 100 yards off bags, the American Whitetail produced two three shot groups of 1.75" and 2.5"

At 100 yards off bags, el cheapo PMC fmj 147 grain produced two three shot groups of 1.25" and 2.5".

Now the good news: 165 grain Federal Vital Shok produced a three shot group at 100 yards of either .5" or .7" (a flyer from a PMC group wandered in) and a 1.25" group.

I'm glad to know the rifle has moa potential. I know there's some operator error in play, and there was about a 10 mph crosswind which I'm sure didn't help. I'm also real glad to know the rifle might be able to shoot the cheap PMC ammo reasonably well. I think the bulk of the original problem was the factory mounts and rings. The shots were not wandering today like they seemed to before. I got two flyers, and I'm fairly certain I flinched on both of them. I'll be interested to try the rifle off a bipod to see what happens to the groups. All in all, I feel like this is a solid lightweight hunting rig.

This was the first time I've shot off sandbags. The recoil seemed rough compared to standing or a bipod. Any tips to reduce recoil off bags?

Thanks again to everyone for all the help in this thread as well as all the shared knowledge throughout the forum. I'll probably post separately to warn about the factory mounts and rings on the Trophy Hunter. I think they cost me more in ammo than the DNZ mount cost.

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Originally Posted by cttb

...This was the first time I've shot off sandbags. The recoil seemed rough compared to standing or a bipod. Any tips to reduce recoil off bags?....

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I'm not a super experienced bench rest shooter but one tip I'd have is to make sure the butt pad is pressed firmly and consistently into your shoulder during each shot. You just don't want any slack between the butt pad and your shoulder which will cause the recoil to whack you instead of push you.

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Originally Posted by Chrazy-Chris

I'm not a super experienced bench rest shooter but one tip I'd have is to make sure the butt pad is pressed firmly and consistently into your shoulder during each shot. You just don't want any slack between the butt pad and your shoulder which will cause the recoil to whack you instead of push you.

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Very sound advice. Consistency is key also.
My tip would be, don't bristle against the recoil, let it push you (not go limp like a dishrag, just don't fight against it) and let your body weight "roll with the push" so to speak. I have never shot off a bipod, but I assume the legs stay locked in a down position, so they may soak up a lot of recoil in the form of rearward thrust.

BW