Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[yobuck]

I will.

This is a basic long range class, so it's all about learning.

I want to be as prepared as possible to maximize accuracy with my set-up, but I do realize it has limitations - plus I'm learning - so mistakes will be made.

I plan to relax, learn, and have fun. No expectations of amazing results.
If you can shoot well at 100, you will also shoot well at the longer distances at least in proportion.
The difference will be the conditions encountered, such as wind and mirage, which play a larger roll as the distance increases and the bullet loses velocity.
I would by all means take a spotting scope along.
Spend as much time as possible sitting behind the shooters and watching the vapor trail of the bullets.
You will learn much as a result of doing that. Best to keep the power at a lower setting so the image is clearer.
You will soon learn which the better cartridges are simply by watching.

[jkv45]

If you can shoot well at 100, you will also shoot well at the longer distances at least in proportion.
The difference will be the conditions encountered, such as wind and mirage, which play a larger roll as the distance increases and the bullet loses velocity.
I would by all means take a spotting scope along.
Spend as much time as possible sitting behind the shooters and watching the vapor trail of the bullets.
You will learn much as a result of doing that. Best to keep the power at a lower setting so the image is clearer.
You will soon learn which the better cartridges are simply by watching.


Until recently, 100 yards/meters was the farthest I'd shot.

I did another class recently with a maximum distance of 600 yards, and had 1st round hits on all 7 plates out to 600 yards with 168gr GMM. I believe the steel ranged from 12 x 12" at 350 to 24 x 24" at 600. Had my best hits at 600 after some tweaking along the way.

Made some minor adjustments from the ballistic chart I was using, but it all fell into place pretty well. Wind was mostly light.

Very enjoyable day, and I learned a lot, but it also showed me I've got a lot to learn...

[darkker]

Doesn't FGMM 168 run out of gas by 800yds or so, due to its BC?

Can you get out past that with the 168 SMK and hand loads at higher velocity?

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers

[yobuck]

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers
But meanwhile, i suppose one could just touch the paint in order to find out? lol

[wbm]

No "wet paint" warning so yeah.

[jkv45]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR -


Is the current Winchester "M118LR Long Range, 175gr Sierra Match King BTHP Service Grade" a match grade ammo equal to or better than Federal GMM?

I've found it at a slightly more reasonable price, but comments across the board say it's not match grade.

Is there a different M118LR that is match grade?

[hamiltonkiler]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR -


Is the current Winchester "M118LR Long Range, 175gr Sierra Match King BTHP Service Grade" a match grade ammo equal to or better than Federal GMM?

I've found it at a slightly more reasonable price, but comments across the board say it's not match grade.

Is there a different M118LR that is match grade?

It’s hotter.

Like black hills vs fgmm vs normas

Black hills ammo is hotter in my little testing with the .223
I can only assume the same for the .308


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[wbm]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR

Sent you a PM.

[jkv45]

An update -

I searched around and found 4 different 175gr .308 factory loads to test, and got out this weekend for a basic 100yd session to see what happens.

I tried Federal GMM 175, Lapua 175 Scenar-L, Berger 175, and Hornady 178.

Lapua shot the best 5-shot groups at 3/4" and 1". Federal and Berger both did about the same at 1 1/8".

The surprise was Hornady. Both 5-shot groups had flyers. I initially took the blame, but the second target had a similar flyer, with the first target at 2" and the second at 1 3/4". I had high hopes for the Hornady, as it has the highest bc of all that I tested. The Lapua has the lowest.

None of the groups were beautiful “cloverleafs”, with the best (Lapua) group being a mostly vertical string with all shots touching. The Federal would be the runner-up.

Not a definitive test, but good enough to get me started. By no means an expert rifle shooter at this point.

I have my LR class near the end of the month, with 600, 1000, and 1200yd targets. I'd be more confident going out to 800 with my set-up. I'm not expecting to hammer them in there at 1000, and depending on the weather/temp, it looks most will be transitioning to subsonic right about 1200.

We'll see. I don't expect this to be easy.

EDIT: Rifle is a Model 10 FCP HS Precision, 24" heavy barrel, with a SWFA 12x scope. Shooting prone off of front and rear bags.

https://i.imgur.com/fX7JFAn.jpg

[hamiltonkiler]

Great looking set up.
Bed the front of the action and recoil lug and give it another spin.

I wouldn’t dismiss the 168gn smks.

If your shooting take a note book.
The great thing with that scope is you can dial or shoot off the reticle. Your spotter should be able to call your shots if your paying for a class.

Cheers and good luck! Those 3/4-1” groups are great and fine.


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[jkv45]

Great looking set up.
Bed the front of the action and recoil lug and give it another spin.

I wouldn’t dismiss the 168gn smks.

If your shooting take a note book.
The great thing with that scope is you can dial or shoot off the reticle. Your spotter should be able to call your shots if your paying for a class.

Cheers and good luck! Those 3/4-1” groups are great and fine.


Thanks.

The HS Precision stock has an aluminum bedding block.

I have enough of the 175 for the class, and was surprised they grouped as well at 100 yds as the 168s I had used at 600. If I'm not mistaken, as it gets colder and the air get more dense, my maximum range will decrease. I think it's going to be close even with the 175s with their better bc.

I'm looking forward to it, but trying to keep my expectations realistic for my equipment and ability.

[yobuck]

Thanks.

The HS Precision stock has an aluminum bedding block.

I have enough of the 175 for the class, and was surprised they grouped as well at 100 yds as the 168s I had used at 600. If I'm not mistaken, as it gets colder and the air get more dense, my maximum range will decrease. I think it's going to be close even with the 175s with their better bc.

I'm looking forward to it, but trying to keep my expectations realistic for my equipment and ability.
While your at your class, and have the opportunity to shoot at the longer distances, let those results tell you the best bullet for your gun.
Not the BC number printed on the box.
Ask yourself this question, is the printed BC# the same for my 308 as it is for a 300 Win mag?
And is it also the same for a 300 Win mag as it is for a 300 ultra mag?

[jkv45]

While your at your class, and have the opportunity to shoot at the longer distances, let those results tell you the best bullet for your gun.
Not the BC number printed on the box.
Ask yourself this question, is the printed BC# the same for my 308 as it is for a 300 Win mag?
And is it also the same for a 300 Win mag as it is for a 300 ultra mag?
I think that's what I did - though not at long range. My best guess of which will work best, at long range, is based on the 100 yard group and its potential at extended range.

That's all I can test before the class. Really, I'm just excluding the one or ones that didn't do well.

I'm not just going by the bc listed on the box.

EDIT: This was the best target of the day with the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L (BC of .490). I think the vertical stringing is mostly operator error -

https://i.imgur.com/Vg5z6FJ.jpg

[yobuck]

I think that's what I did - though not at long range. My best guess of which will work best, at long range, is based on the 100 yard group and its potential at extended range.

That's all I can test before the class. Really, I'm just excluding the one or ones that didn't do well.

I'm not just going by the bc listed on the box.


If you intend using the gun for long range anything, you are better off if you shoot/test your bullets and loads at a longer distance than 100 yds.
Initial shooting at 100 is ok and setting your scope up for a 100 yd zero is also.
But you might find some bullets performing better as the distance increases than they do at 100 yds, 400 yds would be a better distance to shoot.
As for the BC, it is never a fixed number as you find printed on a box.
Thats actually false advertising that they can get away with because it is possible to achieve that number provided the proper velocity has been reached.
Never mind average Joe buyer might not reach it with his cartridge.
You have to actually shoot your gun at the various distances in order to find out which bullet works best.
The 308 is a great cartridge, especially for someone learning to shoot long range due to the wide selection of bullets available in 30 caliber.
And it is also a very good cartridge to keep up practicing with after you become proficient and have guns using larger cartridges.
But it is also just what it is, a 308, and just like every other cartridge that means it will only perform (well) out to a certain distance.
With the right combination of scope and mount system you might (lob) bullets out to a mile or even more with it.
And if on the particular day you shoot the wind conditions are good you might actually do pretty well.
But count that up as a winning lottery ticket, because thats what it amounts to.
Realistically, with good conditions, you can expect your 308 to be a good performer at least on targets out to about 1000 yds.
Make up your mind that 1000 yds is a very long shot, much longer than the average long range shot on animals anywhere in this country while hunting.
But then there is real world, and there is also dream world, and thats where many of us choose to live.
The lighter bullets should reach a higher velocity, and the velocity will more than offset any potential BC difference to some point down range.
Again, you can increase or decrease the BC # of a bullet by changing the velocity.
Take advantage of the opportunity to try those 168s at 1000 yds compared to the 175s.
Its all fun, and its all practice, and it can also be enlightening

[jkv45]

If you intend using the gun for long range anything, you are better off if you shoot/test your bullets and loads at a longer distance than 100 yds.
Initial shooting at 100 is ok and setting your scope up for a 100 yd zero is also.
But you might find some bullets performing better as the distance increases than they do at 100 yds, 400 yds would be a better distance to shoot.
As for the BC, it is never a fixed number as you find printed on a box.
Thats actually false advertising that they can get away with because it is possible to achieve that number provided the proper velocity has been reached.
Never mind average Joe buyer might not reach it with his cartridge.
You have to actually shoot your gun at the various distances in order to find out which bullet works best.
The 308 is a great cartridge, especially for someone learning to shoot long range due to the wide selection of bullets available in 30 caliber.
And it is also a very good cartridge to keep up practicing with after you become proficient and have guns using larger cartridges.
But it is also just what it is, a 308, and just like every other cartridge that means it will only perform (well) out to a certain distance.
With the right combination of scope and mount system you might (lob) bullets out to a mile or even more with it.
And if on the particular day you shoot the wind conditions are good you might actually do pretty well.
But count that up as a winning lottery ticket, because thats what it amounts to.
Realistically, with good conditions, you can expect your 308 to be a good performer at least on targets out to about 1000 yds.
Make up your mind that 1000 yds is a very long shot, much longer than the average long range shot on animals anywhere in this country while hunting.
But then there is real world, and there is also dream world, and thats where many of us choose to live.
The lighter bullets should reach a higher velocity, and the velocity will more than offset any potential BC difference to some point down range.
Again, you can increase or decrease the BC # of a bullet by changing the velocity.
Take advantage of the opportunity to try those 168s at 1000 yds compared to the 175s.
Its all fun, and its all practice, and it can also be enlightening
I agree, but 100 yards is all I have available for testing at this point. I'm not a member of the club where the class is being held.

I'm confused though. If a specific cartridge doesn't group well at 100 yards, how can it get better at 1000 yards? How can that be?

As far as 168s vs 175s at 1000 yards, based on ballistic charts, the 168s run out of gas and go subsonic long before the 175s. It looks like even the 175s will be right on the edge of going subsonic right about 1000 with the current conditions.

I'm firmly planted in reality, and as I've said, I don't think getting solid hits at 1000 is going to be easy with my set-up and skill level. Just getting started in long range shooting, and trying to be as prepared as possible for my first time out.

Thanks.

[hamiltonkiler]

The speed of the bullet and maybe yaw makes the bullet hard to stabilize within 100yds the yaw stops somewhere down the line and stabilizes up making groups hold better or the same with some distance.

I see it in the 7mag, .270 cal a lot. Sometimes the 300wm.

Like the 175gn smk and 168gn smk from your 308. That 175gn might not look as good at 100yds but will hold better at 1000yds maybe. That’s a wind bucking issue more than yaw. But if the wind isn’t blowing I’m telling you from experience that 168gn smk will shoot better in a stock load at least to 600yds. In a savage 1-10. Now if you can load that 175smk up hot and stabilize it quick you miles may very.

You just have to shoot what you have on paper at distance to physically see.

Cheers


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[jkv45]

The speed of the bullet and maybe yaw makes the bullet hard to stabilize within 100yds the yaw stops somewhere down the line and stabilizes up making groups hold better or the same with some distance.

I see it in the 7mag, .270 cal a lot. Sometimes the 300wm.

Like the 175gn smk and 168gn smk from your 308. That 175gn might not look as good at 100yds but will hold better at 1000yds maybe. That’s a wind bucking issue more than yaw. But if the wind isn’t blowing I’m telling you from experience that 168gn smk will shoot better in a stock load at least to 600yds. In a savage 1-10. Now if you can load that 175smk up hot and stabilize it quick you miles may very.

You just have to shoot what you have on paper at distance to physically see.

Cheers

Surprisingly, the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L actually produced the best 100yd group (3/4") I've shot with the rifle so far.

The best I got with the 168gr FGMM was just under 1". I've had a chance to shoot the 168s at 600 yards, and was pleased with their performance.

Hoping the Scenar's will do as well. The targets at the class will start at 600 yards, then 1000, and 1200.

Concentrating on improving my technique, but have a ways to go before I see the weakest link as the rifle or load.

In theory, can a 2 MOA group at 100 yards turn into a 1 MOA group at 1000 yards?

Thanks.

[hamiltonkiler]

Surprisingly, the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L actually produced the best 100yd group (3/4") I've shot with the rifle so far.

The best I got with the 168gr FGMM was just under 1". I've had a chance to shoot the 168s at 600 yards, and was pleased with their performance.

Hoping the Scenar's will do as well. The targets at the class will start at 600 yards, then 1000, and 1200.

Concentrating on improving my technique, but have a ways to go before I see the weakest link as the rifle or load.

In theory, can a 2 MOA group at 100 yards turn into a 1 MOA group at 1000 yards?

Thanks.


Surprisingly, the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L actually produced the best 100yd group (3/4") I've shot with the rifle so far.

The best I got with the 168gr FGMM was just under 1". I've had a chance to shoot the 168s at 600 yards, and was pleased with their performance.

Hoping the Scenar's will do as well. The targets at the class will start at 600 yards, then 1000, and 1200.

Concentrating on improving my technique, but have a ways to go before I see the weakest link as the rifle or load.

In theory, can a 2 MOA group at 100 yards turn into a 1 MOA group at 1000 yards?

Thanks.

No. I’ve never seen it.
Like a 1.5” group at 100yds will stay MOA at 3-6 hundred yards.
Wind is your enemy long range. Or any range.
So I guess to answer your question no I have never seen one shrink that much.


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[yobuck]

Hamiltonkiller is spot on with his above post.
You are at this point overthinking the situation.
Forget about small groups at 1000 yds, even the well experienced shooters dont always get good results at the long distances.
If you can shoot 1” groups at 100 yards consistantly, you will do fine at 1000 yards assuming the conditions are decent.
If your goal is small groups and bragging rights, you will be unhappy more often than happy.
Above all else, your class will be a learning experience for you.
If you have a decent spotting scope and a tripod for it that you can use by sitting on say a small stool or a 5 gallon bucket by all means take it with you.
Sit right behind and as close as you can, say 10’ behind other shooters and you can watch the bullet trails on way to the target.
That alone will be an enlightening experience for you.
Dont just concentrate on the trail, as you might miss the bullet impact if you do that.
Be sorta concentrating on the target area and the trail at the same time.
There will be a big difference between 6 or even 800 and 1000 in the trail of the bullet.
And thats where the bullet differences will visually show up.

[jkv45]

Hamiltonkiller is spot on with his above post.
You are at this point overthinking the situation.
Forget about small groups at 1000 yds, even the well experienced shooters dont always get good results at the long distances.
If you can shoot 1” groups at 100 yards consistantly, you will do fine at 1000 yards assuming the conditions are decent.
If your goal is small groups and bragging rights, you will be unhappy more often than happy.
Above all else, your class will be a learning experience for you.
If you have a decent spotting scope and a tripod for it that you can use by sitting on say a small stool or a 5 gallon bucket by all means take it with you.
Sit right behind and as close as you can, say 10’ behind other shooters and you can watch the bullet trails on way to the target.
That alone will be an enlightening experience for you.
Dont just concentrate on the trail, as you might miss the bullet impact if you do that.
Be sorta concentrating on the target area and the trail at the same time.
There will be a big difference between 6 or even 800 and 1000 in the trail of the bullet.
And thats where the bullet differences will visually show up.
I'm trying to get as much to make sense, and be as prepared as possible, before heading to the 1000-yard firing line. That was my point in starting this thread.

If you look at my previous comments, you will see I'm very realistic about my expectations - and not expecting small groups at 1000 yards by any means.

Thanks to those that have chimed-in with tips and info.