Questions Questions Questions

[charlie b]

Long time ago there was a guy in the Phoenix area who swore by STP as a way to make his bore more slippery.

One day he had left too much in the bore and had a kaboom moment. Luckily he was not injured, but, the bore split open in front of the chamber.

[wbm]

Sure! STP increased the fps so much the bullet was like a cutting torch. He shouda known.

[PhilC]

One reality of life on gun forums, opinions on the "best" cleaner or cleaning method is like a certain part of everyone's anatomy, everyone has one. :nod:

[Dave Hoback]

Good Grief.

[Rifleman#1]

Interesting. I have been using Kroil for years and never knew it would eat copper.

Yep run a couple Kroil patches through let it sit a bit even over night patch will come out super green that's copper. i usually clean and swab till clean then leave it on the bench a few evenings swabbing Kroil every time i come by or think about it you will be surprised.!

[Rifleman#1]

some people on these sights take great pride in misleading people please study advice carefully That said Try Kroil for copper you'll be amazed

[Rifleman#1]

amazing you try to help people and throw out an idea and all you get is a bunch of smart a.. crap. and stupid comments just hurts the sight. everybody knows more than the next guy. makes you feel real welcome.

[Dave Hoback]

amazing you try to help people and throw out an idea and all you get is a bunch of smart a.. crap. and stupid comments just hurts the sight everybody knows more than the next guy makes you feel real welcome.

Rifleman, what are you talking about? No one said anything against Kroil?? Several other people simply gave their own usage. It’s ok people use different products. That’s not an attack on your own. Take it easy man.. you’re fine here.

[charlie b]

OK so another thread that made me do research. ROFLMAO

Had to look at the Kroil SDS to see what chemicals in it were copper solvents. A combination of alcohols and ketone with some petroleum type stuff. I don't see how any of these would react with copper. But, there is a proprietary chemical that may be the key. Since it turns the copper blue it will be an ammonia or lye type of chemical.

I thought ammonia or lye based copper solvents were hazardous enough. Then I looked up the SDS of the KG-12 non-ammonia copper solvent. Cyanide. Pro-shot and Boretech use ethylene glycol monobutyl ether. Wipeout is a concoction of some pretty bad stuff as well, Toulene and heptane along with Stoddard and naptha.

I could go on with warnings, but, in my youth (and less frequently later in life) I always used a lot of solvents when cleaning car parts and such. Never used gloves. Never really used respirators either, used the solvents inside garages and such too. Am still here and kidneys/liver doing fine. :)

But, I think from now on I will use an exhaust fan and gloves. :)

Thanks for prompting my research!

[Robinhood]

Rifleman, what are you talking about? No one said anything against Kroil?? Several other people simply gave their own usage. It’s ok people use different products. That’s not an attack on your own. Take it easy man.. you’re fine here.


Sorry Rifleman. I have not been following this thread closely. I certainly was not making fun and I have been known to use Kroil in the bore of a CS barrel for storage. So, I have a clear epoxy mixing cup, a 1961 penny and Kroil. Tomorrow evening we will get results. If none, we can wait a few days.

The truth is, some things you are not sure of will surprise you. Some people are full of it. You never know. This one I didn't know and chemicals can do some interesting things when talking materials. An unknown PH can play tricks on you. Wish me luck.

EDIT: I also put Wipe Out in another container with a penny. I may not post photo's but I will post results

[Robinhood]

Wipeout: While picking the penny out there was blue coloring all around the subject. In less than 10 minutes the tarnished penny was clean not bright like a new penny but like a chemical clean.

Kroil: No change. No green or blue coloring in the liquid.

More to come.

[Robinhood]

I woke to find

WipeOut: Liquid is a very dark blue. No transparency. The penny appears to be loosing copper from the surface. Subjective. I weighed it at 3.1 g so we will see tonight.

Kroil: From my perspective I believe the tarnish has diminished considerably. Copper has not been impacted by the Kroil. No discoloration noticed in the liquid.

[yobuck]

I woke to find

WipeOut: Liquid is a very dark blue. No transparency. The penny appears to be loosing copper from the surface. Subjective. I weighed it at 3.1 g so we will see tonight.

Kroil: From my perspective I believe the tarnish has diminished considerably. Copper has not been impacted by the Kroil. No discoloration noticed in the liquid.
So it would appear that Wipeout and no doubt others have an affect on copper.
But wouldnt the affect on steel barrels be the only real concern?
Ive always run dry patches thru after cleaning regardless of the bore cleaner i used.
Then a patch with kroil which is left in the barrel and a coating on other surfaces as well.
The only problem ive had is with a Jewell trigger being contaminated by the oil.
Storing the gun laying down instead of upright in a safe would probably solve that.
None of the other triggers have been affected.
Prior to using Wipeout, i was using BoreTec Eliminator for copper, and Slick 2000 for carbon.
It was reccomended by the old Precision Shooting magazine after a 2 year study of all then made cleaning products.
I still feel that was a good combination, but i was shown that a patch run thru after cleaning produced lots of blue when using Wipeout.

[charlie b]

There is a concern about leaving some of these products in a barrel overnight.

Eric Cortina and others use CLR for powder fouling on stainless barrels. I tried it and it does work. He also said he filled a bore and let it soak overnight. I probably would not do that due to the caustic agents. Stainless is good stuff but I don't think I'd push my luck with that. I also would not use it on a CM barrel due to the caustic nature. And it will quickly remove bluing.

Ammonia is another one that really should not be left in a CM barrel for hours on end. Stainless might be ok. This is one of the reasons I went to the non-ammonia copper removers. Wipe, let sit for 30seconds, check barrel for copper, repeat. Usually takes less than 15 min to get a fouled barrel cleaned of copper.

I will have to try Wipeout as it does not seem to contain any caustics or acids. Don't see how it dissolves chemically reacts with copper, but, since it seems to will try it.

FWIW, KG-12 does not turn blue when it dissolves copper. Different reaction. To test the Kroil I'd find a copper fouled barrel and apply it. Watch to see of the copper goes away.

[PhilC]

I just recently tried Kroil to see what it would do for my '91 Argentine Mauser's barrel. My go to cleaners are Bore Tech Cu+2 and C4 and didn't seem strong enough to get through 128yrs of fouling.

So I bought some Kroil and ran wet patches through until they were basically clean, then 4 wet patches, and let sit for 24hrs. Repeated this process 3 times. When I ran a dry patch through after 24hrs, the patch was BLACK, second was black, third was a light gray/black, 4th had some light gray/black streaking. After 3 round, first patch was black, second light gray/black streaking, third basically clean. I patched it dry and ran my Teslong down the bore. No carbon at all, clean to the steel, with copper shining right back at me.

I ran 3 or 4 patches wet with Cu+2 down the bore, let sit the requisite 15mins. The first patch down the bore afterward came out the darkest blue I've ever seen from a rifle barrel. I repeated the Cu+2 process once more, dry patched, then borescoped, no copper at all just clean old steel.

While the Kroil didn't remove copper fouling, it did loosen it, and I'll have a can of Kroil on my bench from now on.

[Rifleman#1]

Kroil I have used for at least 20 years and HAS turned every patch green or blue green definitely in that color spectrum i've put through many many rifles so do all the tests you like i sure your penny will eventually disappear completely > Maby your barrel had nothing but carbon no copper who knows i know what i have seen with my eyes and the articles i read about it many years ago so go ahead and use your water based ammonia products make sure you get it out of every nook and cranny ( promotes Rust ie water based.) Ill stick with Kerosene (what Hopps #9 is) and Kroil for copper fowling which my barrels are free of. thank you. O yea Chuck Norris doesn't sell his piss! O yea I oil my trigger on occasion don't you!

[Rifleman#1]

O and! Walt Berget used it for 1shot break in and cleaning procedure to prevent copper from fowling. Your penny melt yet!. good hunting mike.

[Dave Hoback]

Here’s what I know guys. I’ve been a custom Knifemaker for many years. Metal ETCHING(which is what the fear is from harsh chemicals), plays a big roll. And even before that, I studied metallurgical & alloying compositions. Even the HARSHEST solvent, with the highest concentration of ammonia does not react with Iron, Chromium or Molybdenum. Any adverse effects of PURE ammonia on steel is attributed to something called Stress Corrosion Cracking...which is the result of impurities & high temperature. It’s something else....NOT etching. The low % in solvents will not result in this. But of course, ANY ammonia is highly reactive to Copper.

If you want I can do a light etch on a piece of 4140 and leave it in ammonia for several days. The steel will be fine, and the light etching will be unaffected. Now, I would do this in plain vinegar, the it WILL etch the steel.

What started all this HOOPLA, was the early half of the 20th century, many, many people used STEEL brushes in the bore. Some people thought that very fine steel wool would certainly be safe....right? WRONG! Unfortunately, the stigma stuck, as people read the stories. “It MUST be the ammonia hurting the barrel!!” It’s not. Obviously it’s not good to leave any solvent in the bore, day after day. Just as it wouldn’t be good to leave mild SOAP WATER in the bore! But it’s the abrasion of cleaning itself which wears down the rifling. Just as the abrasion of shooting does.

Oh yeah.....I concur, Hoppes is delicious smelling!

[Rifleman#1]

always heard ammonia was water based that being said i have cleaned my muzzleloader with hot soapy water for 20 + years. and used bore butter by Thompson Center only its absolutely spotless perfect not a spot anywhere in the bore or on the blue. use what you choose never had a problem with how i roll. cheers.

[yobuck]

Hot soapy water was also used back in the day when corrosive primers were being used in military ammo.
The end of the barrel would be placed in a container of the water and scrubbed with a brass brush on the rod.
But no doubt back then as is the case now, there were varying opinions on many things.
I have always felt the brushes caused more harm than the bullets, but obviously not all agree.
The only one needing to be happy with his own system of doing things however is the user.