Questions Questions Questions

[charlie b]

Dave,

Thanks for that. I am a simple mechanical engineer, chemistry interests me but my dad was the chemist in the family.

I wonder if the stories about ammonia came from the carrier (sometimes water) that the ammonia based products seem to use. I could see someone leaving Sweet's in a barrel for a week, running patches through and then see rust pits.

And, yes, vinegar is an acid so will etch steels over time.

What components of Wipeout cause it to react with the copper? Toulene, heptane, Stoddard and naptha are listed in the SDS.

[Rifleman#1]

Ei EI EI O its off to work i go my method has years of proven results for me

[Dave Hoback]

Dave,

Thanks for that. I am a simple mechanical engineer, chemistry interests me but my dad was the chemist in the family.

I wonder if the stories about ammonia came from the carrier (sometimes water) that the ammonia based products seem to use. I could see someone leaving Sweet's in a barrel for a week, running patches through and then see rust pits.

And, yes, vinegar is an acid so will etch steels over time.

What components of Wipeout cause it to react with the copper? Toulene, heptane, Stoddard and naptha are listed in the SDS.




I guess it would be Heptane. It’s listed as “Not recommended” on Brass. I know that Toluene is not corrosive to Brass. And the Stoddard & Naphtha are just types of Mineral Spirits, which are also safe on Brass. Only leaves the Heptane. But even it, I think is pretty mild.
Corrosive compounds to brass, rather the main element Copper, are Ammonias, Peroxides, and Sulfuric/Nitric acids actually will dissolve the copper. So I’m not too sure about the Wipeout. I’ve never used it so I don’t know how effective it actually is on copper fouling. Obviously, ANY cleaning solution will rid the bore of copper over time. They just differ is “wiping” the oxides away, vs dissolving it immediately.

[Dave Hoback]

always heard ammonia was water based that being said i have cleaned my muzzleloader with hot soapy water for 20 + years. and used bore butter by Thompson Center only its absolutely spotless perfect not a spot anywhere in the bore or on the blue. use what you choose never had a problem with how i roll. cheers.

The Household Ammonia is actually Ammonia Hydroxide & water. Pure Ammonia is a gas and is classified as a “weak Base”. NH3 boils at like -20f or something! So it must be stored under pressure.

[Robinhood]

Rifleman, I went in this really hopeful brother but after 12 plus hours the copper penny soaked in Kroil looks clean but it still has a patina. There is no green or blue coloration in the container with Kroil and a penny in it.

The container with the penny and Wipeout is bright copper color that appears like it is being attacked chemically or a low PH, not polished or smooth. The liquid is a very dark blue and is obviously having an impact on it.

What my test did not show was if the penetrating action helped separate the copper from the base metal. What it did show is that Kroil does not attack or dissolve copper in the time frame of late last night until approximately 1545 CDT. 12-14hrs(i don't remember when I dropped them in.) It shows that within minutes, Wipeout was attacking and displacing copper.

If you believe my test to be wrong I encourage anyone to duplicate it with at least using Aero-Kroil as part of the test.

Personal opinion. I continue to believe kroil is a top notch product. For copper removal I will use something else and Wipeout has proven to be able to do the job. Better than I thought it did.

[Orezona]

Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!

[charlie b]

I guess it would be Heptane. It’s listed as “Not recommended” on Brass. I know that Toluene is not corrosive to Brass. And the Stoddard & Naphtha are just types of Mineral Spirits, which are also safe on Brass. Only leaves the Heptane. But even it, I think is pretty mild.
Corrosive compounds to brass, rather the main element Copper, are Ammonias, Peroxides, and Sulfuric/Nitric acids actually will dissolve the copper. So I’m not too sure about the Wipeout. I’ve never used it so I don’t know how effective it actually is on copper fouling. Obviously, ANY cleaning solution will rid the bore of copper over time. They just differ is “wiping” the oxides away, vs dissolving it immediately.

Thanks Dave. That was kinda my take on it.

But, if Wipeout turns blue with exposure to copper that indicates there is an ammonia or sodium/potassium hydroxide present, which is what is confusing to me.

[Rifleman#1]

Amen on the real copper penny! I am not beyond learning just read the details from WIPEOUT and think i will try it. although it is the exact same process and procedure ive used with Kroil. Kroil's info even states about aiding in removing copper fowling. good shooting .

[Dave Hoback]

Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!

Any penny dated 1982 and earlier is 95%+ Copper.

Charlie: I agree. That reaction with the Wipeout indicates an harsh Copper chemical reaction. And I absolutely trust Robin’s testing. It’s a head scratcher to me as I looked at the MSDS as well. The chemicals alone, on paper, don’t constitute THAT reaction. But can’t argue the results. But the same applies for Kroil results. Of course, like I was saying earlier, the Kroil will STILL clean the Copper fouling by simply WEARING it down with every patch/brush contact, through chemical abrasion.

[Rifleman#1]

simply not true i dont scrub my barrels with a brush i brush a few times then start the Kroil patch -dry patch process . let sit repeat . anyway nobody is going to agree on anything . and if you think Kroil or any one else lists all there proprietary ingredients i think your fooling yourself everyone would be stealing your formula . thanks for the sparring session didn't know i joined a boxing web sight. mike.

[Dave Hoback]

Rifleman, you are the only one uh, “boxing” there chief. For some reason, you are reading everyone’s posts with an negative attitude & inflection. Nothing I’ve said has been directed towards you, and I haven’t read anyone else’s post that was aimed directly at you. For the second time, NO ONE is admonishing YOUR choice. This is a conversation, and it’s OK if we do different things....and talk about it. I’m not really sure what you’re after, or why you set your anger towards me. I didn’t call you out a single time. Many of us here posting in this thread have known each other online for several years. The last page Charlie & I have been going back & forth. What ever I say isn’t an abject to you! I’m sorry you feel like it is. But that’s you projecting...the ANGRY voice inflection you hear in your head while reading my post. And that simply isn’t me. Ask some of the guys here. Or peruse through some of my older posts.

[Robinhood]

Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!


Cash was used a lot when my bride and I first got married. So as we collected pennies in the penny jar( an old Ozarka 5 gallon water bottle) from change, and after it got abut half full, we started rolling them up by year. I knew that copper had increased in value many years ago when they stopped making them as my dad was a small time coin collector. So we marked all the rolls and she eventually took all of the 1982 and newer ones down and got cash for them I haven't been able to get rid of those memories but I guessed this was as good of time to use them as any.

We used to see silver coins show up every now and then. Dimes and quarters mostly but that was a long time ago. My eye still catches an old copper penny if it lands in my hand. It is interesting to see the differences in the stamping. The old pennies had much deeper impressions and more pronounced lettering, edge and Lincolns bust too. I cleaned some up in my metal pin tumbler as I didn't think any were valuable. I got my glasses out and was amazed by the difference I had never taken time to see.

[charlie b]

We are just trying to find out why things work. I have known how ammonia reacts with copper but never knew how the non-ammonia solutions worked until this thread get me started.

As I stated, the Kroil proprietary ingredient must be something interesting as the other listed items should not turn copper to a blue solution.

And, yes, the SDS must have all the ingredients with a few exceptions (like water). If any are regarded a company secret then they are labeled such with the appropriate test results on toxicity, flammability, etc. Of the solutions I looked at for this thread the Kroil SDS was the only one to list a proprietary ingredient.

I've been through this before when researching bullet lubricants for cast bullets as well. It is quite interesting as some "special" products by some companies are really just common chemicals combined in a slightly different mix. But, they probably would not sell much if they admitted their product could be made at home for 1/10 the price. Some of the black powder cleaners/lubes are the worst offenders in this area.

[Rifleman#1]

UM HUM runs rampant in these web sights you post something and everyone tries to cut you off at the knees. Chuck Norris still isn't selling his peeeee . O any you insinuating im angry and have something in my head is what? I'm not a social media person for this exact reason good day old chap.

[Robinhood]

Hey brother. Like you, I think Kroil is good stuff. I was very interested in your results. I did a subjective test in hopes I would find something new.

Right this second I am looking at a penny sitting in Kroil. After twenty hours, there is zero sign of the copper being attacked. I have asked others to perform the same test so that they could see what I am a witness too. I have zero agenda with the exception to clear things up. I was hoping that the results would clarify things. It was in the best interest for everyone to verify your claim in the manner it was done. Knowledge is power.

[Dave Hoback]

Oh boy.... ok, The Chuck Norris comment had nothing to do with you. It was an inside joke. Cutting ME off at the knees?? I suggest you read the comments on page 1 and the back & forth.

So sorry you misinterpreted what I said as an attack on you. I promise you it wasn’t....I don’t know you. Trust me, you’re not even on my radar! But if you’d like, I’ll not comment on your threads from now on partner. Have a good one.

[PhilC]

Kroil patches through my heavily fouled Mauser barrel were black, never blue, bore condition verified with $50 Teslong borescope.

The first two are Kroil only, wet patches through bore until dripping from muzzle, 24hr soak, dry patched out and repeated 3 consecutive days.

https://i.ibb.co/NCB6YP0/WIN-20210602-10-18-14-Pro.jpg (https://ibb.co/NCB6YP0)

https://i.ibb.co/g4L9k55/crown.jpg (https://ibb.co/g4L9k55)

After that process, I ran Cu+2 patches through bore until dripping from muzzle, let sit 15mins, dry patched out and checked with borescope. First pass revealed most of the copper was gone so repeated process a second time. After second round I ran the borescope through again rotating full diameter and sweeping full length, entire bore is down to metal.

https://i.ibb.co/McKmRcP/WIN-20210723-09-43-18-Pro.jpg

(https://ibb.co/McKmRcP)https://i.ibb.co/X7vkFvm/WIN-20210723-09-44-37-Pro.jpg (https://ibb.co/X7vkFvm)

[Rifleman#1]

those 4 spots are entirely different spots in the barrel. compare the pictures. also its so rough the copper may help it. bore scope does not determine how a rifle shoots that dirty old thing may shoot dimes like my Argentine. cheers . and your pulling peoples leg .every time over 30+ years i have used Kroil i have got greenish (blue)if you like patches.

[Rifleman#1]

That said i will try the Bore Tech cu2 faster is always better sounds like a good product. cheers

[Rifleman#1]

Hey wait a minute Bore Tech 2 may be Chuck Norris Pee.?