Results with Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor

[CFJunkie]

Thinking about it over night, I think it would also be wise to try 30 in.-lbs. of torque as well.
If I remember correctly, a Savage video told of 30 in.-lbs. being the most effective setting for stock like the 12 FV's that does not have an aluminum rail or aluminum posts.

In any case, if I am going to experiment, I ought to try settings on either side of 35 in.-lbs.
Unfortunately, to get any data that you can rely on, I'll have to shoot at least 4 groups at each setting, and hope there is not a lot of deviation among the group sizes.
Otherwise I don't think I'll be able to conclude anything.
Luckily, with the 45 in.-lbs. data, the standard deviations were small enough to allow me to conclude that the sample was representative.

[CFJunkie]

Got to the range this morning and filled out the group count with IMR 4350 powder.

The following are the results for the morning of May 6th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards. Temperatures from 59 to 63 degrees with winds from calm to 3 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.361 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.

All these loads were shot with IMR4350 powder tuned for forecasted temperature using QuickLOAD’s temperature adjustments.
Exit time was matched to the desired 12th reflection time by tuning the powder charge, seating depth based upon the measured trim length for the brass for each load.



# Grps

Load Description

-----------Bullet--------

Wgt

--Vel--

Avg--

Median
St Dev-

--1 --

--2--

--3--

--4--



3

IMR4350 41.2 gr 2.819 1.911 wf 1.361 * 59/60 deg F.

Hornady Match # 26331

140

2683

0.390

0.390

0.094
0.296
0.390

0.484





4

IMR4350 40.9 gr 2.810 1.910 wf 1.361 * 61/62 deg F.

Hornady Match # 26333

147

2659

0.386

0.381

0.017

0.372

0.374

0.387

0.409



2

IMR4350 41.2 gr 2.810 1.910 wf 1.361 * 63/64 deg. F.

Sierra Match King #1742

142

2680

0.389

0.389

0.024

0.372

0.406





9

# groups




0.388

0.387

0.049

[CFJunkie]

A bit more summary data to update the summary with these additional groups.

The averages for 140, 142, and 147 grain bullets for IMR4350 powder have been updated.
The data for IMR4451 powder have not been changed.

5 Round Groups Savage 12 FV 6.5 mm Creedmoor
# Grps --Powder -----Bullet -------------------Wgt-- Avg --Vel
4 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26177 ---130 0.362 2719 ----IMR4350 Powder
7 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 0.365 2659---- Average # Grps
6 ----- IMR 4350 Sierra Match King #1742---142 0.368 2678 ------0.381 ----24
5 ----- IMR 4350 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 0.396 2683
2 ----- IMR 4350 Sierra Tipped MK #7430 ---130 0.473 2720

8 ----- IMR4451 Sierra Tipped MK #7430 ---130 0.383 2700 -----IMR4166 Powder
4 ----- IMR4451 Sierra Match King #1742 ---142 0.383 2661 -----Average # Groups
3 ----- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26177 ---130 0.391 2698 --------0.397 ---40
7 ----- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26333 ---147 0.394 2638
13 ---- IMR4451 Hornady Match # 26331 ---140 0.399 2664
5 ----- IMR4451 Berger Match # 26401 -----140 0.429 0.378
64 ---------------------------------------------------0.391


Today's groups were all shot with the action screws still torqued to 35 in.-lbs. so the overal results have been updated for the 35 in.-lbs. data.
The 45 in.-lbs. data has not been changed.

5-Round Groups
Wgt -Avg-- Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.390 --0.398 -0.080 ---17
140 -0.405 --0.401 -0.091 ---23
142 -0.374 --0.374 -0.036 ---10
147 -0.379 --0.381 -0.056 ---14
------0.391 --0.387 -0.074 ----64

5-Round Groups 35 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt ---Avg Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.385 --0.398 -0.081 ---13
140 -0.379 --0.356 -0.099 ---12
142 -0.374 --0.374 -0.036 ---10
147 -0.379 --0.381 -0.056 ---14
-------0.379 --0.375 -0.061 --46
Only for weights in torque test
-------0.381 --0.374 -0.088 --25

5-Round Groups 45 in.-lbs. torque
Wgt ---Avg Median St Dev # Grps
130 -0.406 --0.411 -0.086 ---4
140 -0.455 --0.456 -0.062 ---8
142
147
------0.438 --0.456 -0.071 --12

[Texas10]

Very thorough data collection. Your methodology is remarkable and a pleasure to read. As far as action torque, have you read these procedures for torque tuning?https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

I start with 35 to 45 on the front screw and 15 on the back. All values are INCH pounds. Then shoot a 3 shot group, and raise the rear screw torque to 20. Then 25 and then 30. Typically accuracy will fall off as torque goes over 25, so back down and repeat to find the sweet spot. From then on you'll be carrying a torque wrench in your shooting kit and rechecking this before each day at the range.

I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. Very interesting read!

[CFJunkie]

Texas10,
I appreciate the compliment.
Having done measurement and analysis for almost 50 years as part of my profession, it just seems to come naturally.
Fortunately, good recordkeeping and looking at data in a variety of ways has become second nature to me.

Thanks again for the link.
I think I may have seen it before, but there are also some Savage articles that recommend adjusting the action screws in small increments at a time from back to front.
I think those articles may have made the biggest impression on me because I have been using that technique most of the time.

[CFJunkie]

I got sidetracked yesterday at the range helping a range buddy with a problem with his AR and didn’t finish the loads I had laid out for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor. I went back to the range this morning and finished the last load.

The following are the results for the morning of May 7th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards. Temperatures from 64 to 70 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.361 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel for the 12th reflection at the chamber.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Wgt-
Vel--
Avg--
Median-
Std Dev--
1-----
2-----
3-----
4


4
IMR4350 41.4 gr 2.864 1.909 wf 1.361 * 64/65 deg. F.
Sierra Tipped Match King #7430
130
2721
0.352
0.348
0.019
0.333
0.343
0.352
0.378



The results to date with the two powders used so far are:


Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev


IMR4350
0.376
0.376
0.062


IMR4451
0.397
0.400
0.079


Here is an update on the two different torque settings:



Torque on Action Screws
Avg
Median
St Dev
3 Gps



35 In.-Lbs.
0.378
0.374
0.069
56



45 In.-Lbs.
0.438
0.456
0.071
12



Overall Average
0.388
0.381
0.073
68


















When you compare the data for powders including torque settings, the numbers look a bit different.


Torque
Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps
Diff.


35
IMR4350
0.376
0.376
0.062
28



35
IMR4451
0.379
0.368
0.077
28
0.67%


45
IMR4451
0.438
0.456
0.071
12
16.35%



The overall average of all groups has dropped from 0.391 to 0.388, but the average for IMR4451 with the 35 in.-lbs. torque setting has dropped to 0.379 (less than 1% difference to IMR4350) compared to the average of 0.438 for the 45 in.-lbs. torque setting with a 16.5% difference to IMR4350 and a 15.57% difference to the 35 in.-lbs. torque results for IMR4451 powder.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 17th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures from 62 to 66 degrees with winds from 3 to 6 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel.
For this session, I mounted a 8-32X56mm Benchrest Nightforce Scope so I could move the 36X Sightron to my new 12 FV .223 that is the subject of another thread within this forum.

I tried some Reloader 17 with the 130 grain Sierra TMK bullets and the 140 Hornady ELD-M bullets because my previous tries with RL-17 indicated that it worked best with light bullets.
I shot some IMR4350 powder with the 142 SMKs and the 147 ELD-M bullets to add groups to those powder-bullet combinations.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Wgt
Vel
Avg
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4


3
RL-17 41.1 2.815 1.910 wf 1.360 * 66/nn deg.. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Sierra TMK #7430
130
2803
0.296
0.306
0.039
0.253
0.306
0.329



2
RL-17 41.1 2.813 1.911 wf 1.360 * 62/nn deg.. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M # 26331
140
2763
0.558
0.558
0.114
0.477
0.638




3
IMR4350 41.1 gr 2.818 1.909 wf 1.361 * 69/nn deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra Match King #1742
142
2679
0.358
0.333
0.062
0.312
0.333
0.428



3
IMR4350 40.6 gr 2.810 1.908 wf 1.361 * 71/nn deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M # 26333
147
2655
0.373
0.365
0.046
0.332
0.365
0.423



11
# groups



0.381
0.333
0.107







Here is an updated summary of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor to date.



5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight


Weight
Average
Median
St Dev
# Grps



130
0.372
0.352
0.075
24



140
0.417
0.405
0.100
25



142
0.370
0.372
0.041
13



147
0.378
0.374
0.053
17




0.387
0.375
0.077
79




By Powder



Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev




IMR4350
0.375
0.373
0.059




IMR4451
0.397
0.401
0.086




RL-17
0.401
0.329
0.157












By Torque on the Action Screws








Avg
Median
St Dev
# Gps



35 In.-Lbs.
0.378
0.372
0.061
67



45 In.-Lbs.
0.438
0.456
0.071
12



Overall Average
0.387
0.375
0.077
79










Torque
Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps


35
IMR4350
0.375
0.373
0.059
34


35
IMR4451
0.379
0.368
0.077
28


35
RL-17
0.401
0.329
0.157
5


45
IMR4451
0.438
0.456
0.071
12

[CFJunkie]

Robinhood,

Prompted by your question in post #14, I checked the torque settings on the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor when I was cleaning the barrel after the last session,
My records show that there were 300 rounds fired since I tightened the screws to 35 in.-lbs.

Using a torque wrench set at 35 in.-lbs., the rear action screw needed about 1/2 a turn before the torque wrench clicked.
The front action screw turned less than 1/4 turn.
As you suspected, the action screws don't stay consistent in the factory plastic stock at least for the 6.5mm Creedmoor.

I did a similar test with my 12 FV .223 with the torque wrench still set to the same setting and there was no movement in the action screws.
It could be that the added recoil from the 6.5mm Creedmoor is loosening them up.

Considering how this rifle shoots, I guess I will do a regular test of the action screws every time I shoot 100 rounds.
It will also give me some opportunities to adjust the torque to test settings at 30 and 40 in.-lbs. as well.
I am preparing another batch of loads tomorrow and will probably set the action screws to 40 in.-lb. to see if it makes a difference.

[varget204]

Just a thought,as good as your rifle shoots,i'd try a pillar bedded stock at least,i had a 12 fv that shot around 1/2",i put a $100 Bell and Carlson pillar bedded stock on it.It would shoot in the High .1's and low.2's,once set,the action screws never moved.

[CFJunkie]

Currently, I am just trying to see what I can accomplish with a bargain rifle and a factory stock that some people really hate.
So far it is doing better than I thought it would.

I am looking at a couple of stock options but I haven't decided if I want to keep the hidden mag or go with a detachable mag. replacment.
I have had good results from stocks with aluminum frames in addition to pillar bedding so I expect I will go that route.
Thanks for the advice and the documented improvements.
I haven't seen a B&C stock for that rifle that comes close to $100. You got a bargain.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 22nd shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures were from 60 to 69 degrees with winds from 3 to 6 mph.
Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve 1.360 msec. exit time that should be in the sweet spot for the 26-inch Savage 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040 inch recessed crown to put the 12th reflection at the chamber.


# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Wgt
Vel
Avg
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4


3
IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.857 1.911 wf 1.360 *67/69 deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TMKing #7430
130
2698
0.347
0.348
0.010
0.336
0.348
0.356



3
IMR4350 41.0 gr 2.825 1.910 wf 1.360 * 65/67 deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M # 26331
140
2673
0.470
0.506
0.133
0.323
0.506




4
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.823 1.909 wf 1.360 * 61/64 deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Berger Match # 26401
140
2665
0.379
0.364
0.049
0.338
0.358
0.370
0.450


3
IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.820 1.908 wf 1.360 * 57/60 deg F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra SMK #1742
142
2659
0.379
0.360
0.076
0.314
0.360
0.463



13




0.377
0.357
0.061







The overall average of all groups has dropped from 0.388 to 0.386, although the average for the 35 in.-lbs. torque settings has dropped to 0.383 compared to the average of 0.438 for the 45 in.-lbs. torque settings.



Torque
Avg.
Median
St Dev
# Grps



35 in.-lbs.
0.383
0.372
0.074
79



45 in.-lbs.
0.438
0.456
0.071
12



A summary of all loads shot to date shows the following for all loads shot regardless of the torque settings:



5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight


Wgt
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps


130
0.369
0.351
0.071
27


140
0.412
0.401
0.094
31


142
0.372
0.367
0.046
16


147
0.378
0.374
0.053
17



0.386
0.372
0.075
91



Looking at the results by Powder used shows:



Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps




IMR4350
0.377
0.373
0.062
36




IMR4451
0.391
0.372
0.074
50




RL-17
0.401
0.329
0.157
5












Torque
Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps
Diff


35
IMR4451
0.376
0.360
0.070
38



35
IMR4350
0.377
0.373
0.062
36
0.14%


35
RL-17
0.401
0.329
0.157
5
6.48%


45
IMR4451
0.438
0.456
0.071
12
16.53%

[varget204]

The BC stock i got threw Cabelas on sale,if your machaniclly inclined Stocky Stocks sell Steel Savage Pillars for Savage stocks for $15

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results for the morning of May 25th shot in Northern Virginia at 100 yards.
Temperatures from 67 to 74 degrees with winds from 4 to 7 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.
All rounds were shot with a Savage 12 FV using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers and all bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time that should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040 inch crown recess.
The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. for this session.
A 8-32X56mm Benchrest Nightforce Scope was mounted on the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor so I could move the 36X Sightron to my new 12 FV .223 that is the subject of another thread within this forum.
At this session, I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time. That changed the seating depth on three of the 4 bullet loads – the Berger 140s stayed the same as the last IMR4451 load for that bullet that outperformed today’s load by 0.016 inches.

Also at this session, I shot some IMR4350 powder with the 140 Berger VLD bullets – the first time I have used IMR4350 with the Berger 140s.
The results with IMR4350 averaged 0.395 while the IMR4451 averaged 0.379 with the 35 in.-lbs. torque.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Weight
Velocity
Average
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4


4
IM4350 41.1 2.846 1.909 wf 1.360 * 72/74 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Sierra TMK #7430
130
2717
0.353
0.353
0.055
0.286
0.339
0.366
0.419


4
IMR4350 41.1 2.842 1.911 wf 1.360 * 67/70 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M # 26331
140
2685
0.401
0.390
0.042
0..365
0..380
0.399
0.460


3
IMR4350 41.1 gr 2.818 1.909 wf 1.360 * 65/67 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra Match King #1742
142
2681
0.358
0.357
0.079
0.301
0.322
0.447



3
IMR4350 40.6 gr 2.848 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/72 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Berger VLD Match #26401
140
2684
0..395
0.418
0.078
0.308
0.418
0.459



14
# groups



0.376
0.373
0.059







The net result of reducing the jump for 3 of the 4 bulletschanged the overall average by 0.003 from 0.388 to 0.385 by the addition of 14groups.

Here is an updated summary of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor from inception to this morning session.




5-Round Groups by Bullet Weight


Weight
Average
Median
St Dev
# Grps



130
0.365
0.348
0.069
24



140
0.410
0.4
0.088
38



142
0.370
0.362
0.050
19



147
0.378
0.374
0.053
17




0.385
0.372
0.073
105




By Powder




Powder
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps



IMR4350
0.377
0.373
0.061
50



IMR4451
0.391
0.372
0.074
50



RL-17
0.401
0.329
0.157
5






















By Torque on the Action Screws







Torque
Average
Median
St Dev
# Grps



35 in.-lbs.
0.378
0.367
0.071
93



45 in.-lbs.
0.438
0.456
0.071
12



Overall Average
0.385
0.372
0.073
105





























5-Round Groups
35 in.-lbs. torque


Wgt
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps


130
0.361
0.351
0.066
27


140
0.398
0.377
0.083
30


142
0.370
0.362
0.050
19


147
0.378
0.374
0.053
17



0.383
0.373
0.071
93


Only for bullets in torque test
35 in.-lbs. torque


Wgt
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps


130
0.357
0.347
0.068
16


140
0.398
0.377
0.091
30



0.384
0.366
0.085
46










5-Round Groups
45 in.-lbs. torque


Wgt
Avg
Median
St Dev
# Grps


130
0.406
0.411
0.086
4


140
0.455
0.456
0.062
8

















0.438
0.456
0.071
12

[CFJunkie]

Some of you asked about whether I loaded for jump for this rifle. I had a good idea of where the various bullets would perform based upon my results with my other two Savage 6.5mm Creedmoor rifles.
I admit that I didn’t even bother shooting the Sierra 140 gr SMK #1740 bullets because they shot so poorly in my other two rifles and I didn’t bother with Berger’s 140 gr Long Distance #26409 and Hybrid #26414 because they didn’t perform much differently than the 140 gr Berger #26401 Match bullets. I still had 200 of them and didn’t want to spend another $60 a box to buy more of the LD and Hybrids hoping for a miracle.

For the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor results since inception, I did an analysis of the effects of seating depths for all the groups shot with the 35 in.-lbs. torque settings so the results would not be skewed by the poor performance at 45 in.-lbs.
The results are shown in O.A.L. measurements because the ogive to tip measurement varies for each bullet type.
The 130 gr Hornady ELD-M #26177 data was limited by having only one half-box of bullets left when I started data gathering with the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor rifle.

The column headings - except for the last two columns - are in increments of thousandths away from SAAMI recommended O.A.L. of 1.910.
Normally I like to keep the jump around 0.015 to 0.020 to minimize the chance of getting the bullet touching the rifling.
(The poly tips on the TMKs and ELD-M bullets add to the bullet overall length but the ogive determines the jump.)
“Avg Diff” is calculated difference in group average at each depth range by the using the average minus the best load average at the seating depth (underlined).

Group Averages by Bullet by O.A.L. Range - 35 in. Lbs. Torque
--------------------------------- 5-10 -- 11-20 -- 21-30 -- 31-40 -- 41-50 -- 51-60 Avg Diff. Jump for best load avg.
Hornady ELD-M # 26177 130 0.374 -------------------------------------------------- - ------- 0.024
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 --------------------------------------- 0.393 -- 0.341 - 0.024 - 0.005
Berger Match # 26401 -- 140 0.378 0.386 -------------------------------------------- 0.026 - 0.056
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 0.404 0.415 ------------------------- 0.401------------ 0.008 - 0.024
Sierra SMK #1742 ------- 142 0.370 0.379 ------------------------ 0.357 ------------ 0.013 - 0.014
Hornady ELD-M # 26333 147 0.387 0.337 -------------------------------------------- 0.042 - 0.024

As you can see, the 130 TMKs like to be seated out so the jump (0.005) for the best load average was shorter than I normally try to achieve.
The 140 gr Berger Match bullets are baffling. They seem to shoot better with a longer jump than expected.
(I’m going to remeasure those bullets to see if I made an error in measuring the bullet depth into the chamber on this rifle.)

[CFJunkie]

Here is another set of results for the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 4th at 100 yards. Temperatures from 60 to 69 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level. My loads were planned for slightly warmer temperatures, but a cold front moved through overnight and as a result the temperatures were 4 to 7 degrees cooler than expected. Thankfully, I was using IMR4451 Enduron powder with a 0.16 fps per degree F so the results were actually very close to what I had planned for - at the most 1.2 fps slower than planned.
All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

At this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder with all four loads and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.
I had bought some Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” called Tipped Game King (TGK) bullets #4330 to shoot them at the same time under the same conditions with the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets.
The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow them to open up when they strike game.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.


# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Weight
Velocity
Average
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4


3
IM4451 38.6 2.832 1.913 wf 1.360 * 68/61 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M #26333
147
2638
0.524
0.534
0.063
0.457
0.534




3
IMR4451 39.0 2.835 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/62 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Sierra Match King #1742
142
2663
0.324
0.329
0.064
0.257
0.329
0.385



4
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.840 1.911 wf 1.360 * 73/71 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TMK #7430
130
2698
0.353
0.357
0.044
0.297
0.339
0.387
0.389


3
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.825 1.909 wf 1.360 * 76/nn deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TGK #4330
130
2698
0.483
0.494
0.083
0.395
0.494
0.560



12
# groups



0.402
0.388
0.093







I can’t imagine what I was doing when I shot the first load with the 147 ELD-M Hornady bullets.
I must have still been asleep.

I guess I fixed the problem because I shot the next two loads pretty well.

The Tipped Game King bullets are hunting bullets and I didn’t expect them to be as accurate but they actually did pretty well except for the last group that I rushed to finish before a cease fire was called to change targets.
I didn't want to stay another 30 minutes if I didn't finish before that cease fire.

[DesertDug]

Good to see you are not a robot, and are indeed human....lol

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 7th at 100 yards.

In fact, today’s loads were almost identical to the loads I shot on Tuesday, June 4th.
I wanted to see if I could redeem myself after what I considered a really lousy session.
At this session, I again loaded IMR4451 powder with all three loads and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.


Temperatures from 70 to 77 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level. My loads were planned for slightly cooler temperatures, but the temperatures were 5 degrees warmer than expected and the humidity was high. Thankfully, I was using IMR4451 Enduron powder with a 0.16 fps per degree F so the results were still very close to what I had planned for.
All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Weight
Velocity
Average
Median
St Dev
1
2
3



3
IM4451 38.6 2.832 1.913 wf 1.360 * 68/72 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M #26333
147
2638
0.367

0.385
0.044
0.317
0.385
0.398




3

IMR4451 39.0 2.833 1.912 wf 1.360 * 70/75 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Sierra Match King #1742
142
2663
0.353
0.373
0.055
0.291
0.373
0.395



4
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.853 1.911 wf 1.360 * 72/77 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TMK #7430
130
2700
0.326
0.331
0.030
0.294
0.361
0.354

















9
# groups



0.349
0.354
0042







Today’s with the 147 ELD-M Hornady bullets were a lot better than at the Tuesday June 4th session.
They were the best results yet with IMR4451 powder with that bullet.
Today’s results with the 142 gr SMKs were the 2nd best with that bullet powder combination and the results with the 130 TMKs were the best results to date with IMR4451 powder.
I think I made up for Tuesday and regained my confidence

[CFJunkie]

I thought you all might be interested in some additional data mining from the start through the Jun 6
th
session.

First by the summary of accuracy results from inception through Jun 6th based upon action screw torque settings:

All Groups by Bullet- 35 in.-lbs. Torque
Bullet ---------------------Wgt. Avg. -- Median St Dev # Grps. Rank
Hornady ELD-M # 26177 130 0.374 - 0.387 -- 0.074 -- 7 ---- 3
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 0.353 - 0.345 -- 0.059 - 27 ---- 1
Sierra TGK #4330 ------- 130 0.483 - 0.674 - 0.083 -- 3 ----- 9
Berger Match # 26401--- 140 0.384 - 0.364 - 0.101 - 10 ---- 4
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 0.405 - 0.385 -- 0.087 - 20 ---- 6
Sierra SMK #1742 ------- 142 0.362 - 0.362 - 0.052 - 25 ---- 2
Hornady ELD-M # 26333 -147 0.396 - 0.387 -- 0.072 - 23 ---- 5 Note 1

-----------------------------Total 0.380 - 0.373 -- 0.075 115
All Groups by Bullet- 45 in.-lbs. Torque
Bullet --------------------- Wgt. - Avg. - Median - St Dev # Grps Rank
Sierra TMK #7430 ------- 130 - 0.406 - 0.411 --- 0.086 ---- 4 ---- 7
Berger Match # 26401 -- 140 - 0.505 - 0.505 --- 0.054 ---- 2 --- 10
Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 - 0.438 - 0.431 --- 0.059 ---- 6 ---- 8
-----------------------------Total 0.438 - 0.456 --- 0.071 --- 12

Note 1: The 147 gr Hornady ELD-M totals using 35 in.-lbs. torque include the Jun 4th anomaly group average of 0.534 for 3 groups that really messed up the data for the 147 gr ELD-M when making comparisons.


Without that unexplained disastrous event, the 147 gr ELD-M data and totals would be a more representative statistically, based upon the accepted process control technique to exclude unexplained variations when making comparisons of competing results.
I make this observation because we all occasionally manage to cause anomalies that mess up our conclusions.
If we don’t recognize that one weird session with one load was a variant and an anomaly, our conclusions will be in error.

The revised results for the 147 ELD-M and the totals would move the 147 gr ELD-M from 5th to 4th rank ahead of the Berger Match #26401 bullets giving a pretty representative set of data to analyze what bullets shoot best in this rifle:

Hornady ELD-M # 26333 147 - 0.377 - 0.380 - 0.041 -- 20 * 4
-----------------------------Total 0.376 - 0.369 - 0.071 - 112


For analysis purposes, the rank of the 147 ELD-M changes from 5thto 4thin the overall order.

But for recording purposes, the uncorrected totals ‘as shot’, including the anomaly group average, stand as a summary of my actual results.

[CFJunkie]

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 10th at 100 yards. Temperatures from 69 to 72 degrees with winds from 3 to 5 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

I was serving as the Range Safety Officer but it was raining and there were no shooters present, so I got out my rifle to pass the time while I waited for some shooters to arrive.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with a 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

At this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.003 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

I had bought some Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” called Tipped Game King (TGK) bullets #4330 to shoot them at the same time under the same conditions with the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets. The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow them to open up when they strike game. I had shot the TMKs on Jun 7th and didn’t get to finish the session so I shot the final load on Jun 10th.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Weight
Velocity
Average
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4




3
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.825 1.909 wf 1.360 * 76/69 deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TGK #4330
140
2700
0.325
0.297
0.071
0.278
0.282
0.311
0.429



The Tipped Game King bullets are hunting bullets and Ididn’t expect them to be as accurate but they actually did better during this session than the last time I shot them with the same jump.
But then I didn’t have anyone around to distract me.
I was all finished and packed up before the first shooter arrived when the rain finally stopped.

[CFJunkie]

More results with the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor with the factory stock and barrel.

The following are the results with the Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor shot in Northern Virginia on the morning of June 15 at 100 yards. Temperatures from 63 to 74 degrees with winds from 6 to 9 mph. Altitude of the range is 250 feet above sea level.

All rounds were shot using Lapua brass and CCI BR-4 primers with an 8-32X56mm Benchrest NightForce scope with a NP2-DD reticle. All bullets were loaded to achieve a 1.360 msec. exit time which should be the sweet spot for a 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel with a 0.040-inch recessed crown. The action screws were torqued to 35 in.-lbs. prior to this session.

For this session, I loaded IMR4451 powder and I planned the seating depths so all the different bullets would achieve the same jump to the rifling – 0.020 – and then adjusted the seating depth by less than 0.005 thousandths to achieve the 1.360 exit time.

I loaded the Sierra 130 grain “Game Changer” bullets #4330 called Tipped Game King (TGK) with about the same velocity as the 130 grain Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK) #7430 bullets to achieve the same exit time. I had shot both the TMK and the TGK loads today right after each other so I would get about the same conditions to aid in a direct comparison. The TGKs have a thinner jacket than the TMKs to allow the TGKs to open up better when they strike game.

The load description field shows the powder and charge, the O.A.L., the trim length, and the bullet exit time from the 26-inch barrel.



# Grps
Load Description
Bullet
Weight
Velocity
Average
Median
St Dev
1
2
3
4


4
IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.851 1.908 wf 1.360 * 63/62 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Sierra TMK #7430
130
2700
0.314
0.304
0.037
0.282
0.292
0.316
0.364


3
IMR4451 38.9 gr 2.825 1.911 wf 1.360 * 68/65deg. F. 35 in-lbs.
Sierra TGK #4330
130
2702
0.401
0.398
0.044
0.358
0.398
0.446



4
IMR4451 38.8 gr 2.842 1.912 wf 1.360 * 72/67deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M
#26331
140
2667
0.290
0.293
0.021
0.263
0.289
0.297
0.312


4
IMR4452 38.6 2.827 1.913 wf 1.360 * 74/71 deg. F. 35 in.-lbs.
Hornady ELD-M
#26334
147
2640
0.361
0.351
0.039
0.329
0.337
0.364
0.415


15




0.337
0.329
0.053




















Today’s overall average of .337 was best load of any session so. It looks even better when compared to the overall IMR4451 average of 0.399 with this powder-bullet combination without today’s session.
Some days things go well and some days they just don't. Today was one of the good days, even though the wind was a bit more brisk and changeable then it normally is at our range. Our range is situated in a bowl that is protected by high, earth berms and surrounded by big oaks and hemlocks. There is usually a bit of swirling but the range is generally protected from severe wind action.

The Hornady 140 grain ELD-M bullets had the best load average ever achieved with either the IRM4451 powder used today or the IMR4350 powder also used in other sessions.
This session’s 140 gr ELD-M Hornady load average of 0.290 is the best session load yet shot with any powder bullet combination at any session with this rifle. That surprised me because the 140 ELD-M bullets haven't shot all that well in this barrel. They shoot great in my 12 LRP with the same length barrel. The previous best was 0.296 with Reloader 17 using Sierra 130 gr TMK bullets.

I guess that just proves that part of the driving factor with small numbers of groups is shooter induced variations.
Only a statistically significant number of groups provide a good statistical base to make any conclusions when 'non-fixture testing' is involved and a human is behind the trigger.

The data for this rifle is approaching those quantities so I will soon consider making improvements in the stock to see if it really might be worth the expense.