12 fv bolt opens part way, infrequently

[joeb33050]

The link you provided http://gunlore.awardspace.info/rifledarms/hercules.htm, shows only loads for 30 caliber. Every load is a lead bullet. You must recognize the difference in dynamics.

Sometimes you have to say "hold my beer, watch this". Or maybe you say "I think I will hold off on this and rethink it". "I have jacketed bullets, they are of a different construction than cast bullets." You are justifying the 22-250 boiler room with .22 cal jacket i works like a black powder cartridge that utilizes a .30 cal cast lead bullet. Your own example: 32/40, 28/30, 45/70, 38/55. Joe, don't think everyone here just fell off the turnip truck. In this case I believe that you have missed some indicators that you are taking chances. You are using data that is not been represented to be used in a 22-250. You have compared the properties of a cast bullet with a jacketed bullet, you ignored extreme pressure signs and lastly not one person has posted anything wise about what you are trying to accomplish. the one search that you did not provide was "Pistol powders in a 22-250".

The frightening part of this all is this it has the potential to be in an "Article" This would mean other people are tempted to "Dance with the Devil" on your suggestion. IMHO, That is edging up to irresponsible.

It's about experimenting, new ideas. Don't be afraid! I've been shooting since 1960, written many articles, and the book. I know a little, finding out more.

[tobnpr]

Joe,
I think some of us are puzzled at why you're not making the "link" between what you're "experimenting" with- and the obvious pressure signs you're experiencing.
You're utilizing a very small portion of the case capacity, very fast burning pistol powder, and jacketed bullets.
If you put an RSI Pressure Trace on the receiver, I'd bet my lathe you'd be surprised at the pressure spike(s).

A cast boolit swages easily into the lands/grooves- a jacketed bullet is a completely different animal as Robinhood tried to explain to you. When that jacketed bullet slams into the lands after the ignition of all that fast burning powder, do you not think the pressure spike is going to be much more pronounced than a slower burning powder "pushing" it into them, and then continuing the burn most of the way down the barrel?

I'm no expert on internal ballistics- but that's how I envision what's going on here. As Robinhood said, if there's published data out there on pistol powders in your application with jacketed bullets, I'm happy to eat crow on this.

[Robinhood]

It's about experimenting, new ideas. Don't be afraid! I've been shooting since 1960, written many articles, and the book. I know a little, finding out more.


Sadly this post tells a much different tail. OR you are learning to troll.

[joeb33050]

Joe,
I think some of us are puzzled at why you're not making the "link" between what you're "experimenting" with- and the obvious pressure signs you're experiencing.

What obvious pressure signs? In 223 and 22-250 with 2 223 bbls and 6 22-250 bbls, M10, M12 and Striker, I don't know of ANY pressure signs, in 3-4 thousand shots with jacketed. None.
I think I had primers backing out. Note that the problem described occurred one day with one set of ctgs. Pressure? No!


If anyone wants to see the data so far, ask and I'll send the EXCEL files.
joe b.





You're utilizing a very small portion of the case capacity, very fast burning pistol powder, and jacketed bullets.
If you put an RSI Pressure Trace on the receiver, I'd bet my lathe you'd be surprised at the pressure spike(s).

A cast boolit swages easily into the lands/grooves- a jacketed bullet is a completely different animal as Robinhood tried to explain to you. When that jacketed bullet slams into the lands after the ignition of all that fast burning powder, do you not think the pressure spike is going to be much more pronounced than a slower burning powder "pushing" it into them, and then continuing the burn most of the way down the barrel?

I'm no expert on internal ballistics- but that's how I envision what's going on here. As Robinhood said, if there's published data out there on pistol powders in your application with jacketed bullets, I'm happy to eat crow on this.
see above

[Robinhood]

OK Joe, Why is your bolt sticking with 7.5 grains of tightgroup?

Deleted previous post as it was in poor taste.

[joeb33050]

Hodgdon lists Titegroup loads for jacketed 223/55 and 308/168.

[joeb33050]

OK Joe, Why is your bolt sticking with 7.5 grains of tightgroup?

Deleted previous post as it was in poor taste.

Unlubed cases, primer above case head, I think. No flattened primers.

[Robinhood]

I thought you were shooting a 22-250. So far you have shown no loads for the 22-250. So far everyone has told you it is a no go. You provide evidence for your argument that does not meet any of your criteria. You have made up your mind. Scientific processes have been ruled out. Logic has been ruled out. Brian Litz could not change your mind. Darwin can.

When you figure out what is causing your heavy bolt lift please post it.


Who else do you know who lubes cases to fire in their rifle?

[joeb33050]

I thought you were shooting a 22-250. So far you have shown no loads for the 22-250.


See post #4 above. I have loads with Titegroup, 5.5-8.5 gr. with Nosler 40 and 53 gr bullets, accuracy6 and MV.

So far everyone has told you it is a no go. You provide evidence for your argument that does not meet any of your criteria. You have made up your mind. Scientific processes have been ruled out. Logic has been ruled out. Brian Litz could not change your mind. Darwin can.

??
Hodgdon lists Titegroup loads for jacketed 223/55 and 308/168.

When you figure out what is causing your heavy bolt lift please post it.


Who else do you know who lubes cases to fire in their rifle?

Primer acts as piston, driving case forward. Higher pressure loads, pushes case back around primer. Lower pressure loads, case sticks to chamber wall, doesn't go back, primer protrudes.
2 common fixes, drill out flash hole, bigger, or, lube cases lightly. LOW PRESSURE only. Many/most experienced cast bullet shooters know/do this. I was told about this years ago, by Marlin Bassett, inventor of pillar bedding.




See above

[Robinhood]

Post #4


22-250, 40 gr nosler/7.5 titegroup, turning stops where primary extraction begins-then mallet. no pix

Something is missing Joe.

[Robinhood]

??
Hodgdon lists Titegroup loads for jacketed 223/55 and 308/168.



This is for 223 and 308 not 22-250

[Robinhood]

Primer acts as piston, driving case forward. Higher pressure loads, pushes case back around primer. Lower pressure loads, case sticks to chamber wall, doesn't go back, primer protrudes.
2 common fixes, drill out flash hole, bigger, or, lube cases lightly. LOW PRESSURE only. Many/most experienced cast bullet shooters know/do this. I was told about this years ago, by Marlin Bassett, inventor of pillar bedding.


The modern cartridge design is engineered for the case to adhere to the walls of the chamber.

Notice these guys are talking about CAST BULLETS.

Try this. Get a word document opened. type in or copy and past all of the data you are using. Line by line determine if that data uses all three of these criteria.

* 22-250
** Jacketed bullets
*** 7.5 - ? gr. of Tightgroup

Throw everything else away, Or realize that the data you are using is not for your test and that it means nothing, and you are testing blindly.


My mother in law confuses stories and issues. Someone always chimes in" don't confuse her with facts, her mind is made up".

[Robinhood]

http://massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html

Read hard extraction and flattened primers.

Read the article.

[joeb33050]

I'm done. I asked a question and ended up in a dispute that I don't understand.

Again, I have Accuracy and MV data in Excel, free for the asking.
joe b.

[RustyShackle]

I believe you are desperately trying to convince yourself that this is a good idea. My understanding of using TG powder is for applications where subsonic or easy shooting is the goal. You are expierencing signs of danger and don’t seem to care. Lubing your brass because it is getting hard to extract is a recipe for death. You want the brass to adhere to the case walls! Otherwise the bolt head and receiver lugs are taking all of the force generated when firing. If you are shooting brass just under your headspace then it slams the brass into the bolt head. IMHO you want to stay away from oil and lube. Also more likely to result in a carbon fouling ring in the bore and potential pressure spikes.

[Robinhood]

If I didn't care joe I would have walked on by. However you got the same thing on Castboolits.com.

The only load you used 7.5 grains in was a 12" barrel. Every 16 plus barrel got 8.5 grains. It's in you own data.

[Robinhood]

xxxxx

[olddav]

Example: 223, 12 FV, 40 gr Nosler, 8.5 Titegroup, 2664 fps, .788" avg for 11 five shot 100 yard groups, NO copper fouling = NONE, reduced noise, recoil, barrel wear.

Risk ver Reward is skewed toward risk. In my opinion there are better ways to achieve your goals. Never the less I wish you luck.

[joeb33050]

If I didn't care joe I would have walked on by. However you got the same thing on Castboolits.com.

The only load you used 7.5 grains in was a 12" barrel. Every 16 plus barrel got 8.5 grains. It's in you own data.

Not true, you never saw the data, 26" bbls.

[Evlshnngns]

223 rem and 308 win use FAST rifle powder. They are NOT overbore/major bottle neck case designs. They also have a shallow shoulder angle, Aiding in the flow of pressure. pistol cartidges are FAR more likely to be straight walled, which allows the pressure to work on more bullet surface area compared to case/brass surface area.

Less bottleneck equals faster powder.


I agree oiled cases would put more stress on the action and bolt. This makes me appreciate the cinder block walls between shooting lanes, to bad its not more common.