Copper Fouling Problem

[Txhillbilly]

I have never had any firearm that copper fouled bad until now. My 110 FLP 25/06 is a copper mine! I broke the barrel in properly,and have shot close to 500 rds out of it.
It shoots 100gr bullets great-sub moa at 100yrds,but heavier bullets are so-so,usually 1.5-2 moa.

I have hand lapped the barrel,and it still takes hours to clean this thing,and it still has copper in the barrel.Nothing will take the copper completely out.
I was going to send it back to Savage,but figured if they put another barrel on it,I would have the same problem since it would have probably been machined with the same tooling.

Any Idea's! My 308 and 300WM have always been great shooters and don't copper foul much at all.
I'm open to suggestions.

[flatshooter]

500 rounds you say.... well if you have a standard barrel.. then it'll foul alot faster than a stainless...

So you waited this long to see.. after 30 or 40 you should have cleaned it. I use Tiptons truly remarkable bore cleaner. I found it the fastest and the most agressive for copper.

[Eric in NC]

Is there an accuracy problem or are you just wanting to get the last bit of copper out "just because"?

[hailstone]

It only been in the last decade or so that copper fouling has become such a problem. I don't remember much ever being said about it in the sixties, seventies and eighties. Middle of the nineties its a big problem. So what happened -- did it just start, was there all along and never bothered, what? Could be several products came out on the market around then for copper removal. Possible the bullet jackets are different composition than previously. Maybe increased velocities compounded a minor problem.

My first question would be does it affect accuracy? If so what have you tried--Different solvents? Lower velocities? Different bullets? There's so many variables too sort through. You didn't mentioned if these were reloads or factory loads you shot through this rifle. Its been my experience with many different calibers in various chamberings that the middle weight bullets tend too shoot best. Your barrel tends to reinforce that experience in that the 100 grainers are sub-MOA while the heavier (120 grain?) open up in group size.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I had a 22-250 barrel that was really bad. The new foaming bore cleaners are your best friend. Most barrels will get sparkling clean in one dose. Mine took 3 sessions each time to get all the copper out. The accuracy on mine would fall off like a cliff in 20 rounds. I pulled the barrel and put on a McGowen. That fix has worked on 3 other rifles also.

Good luck with yours.

If you get sick of cleaning it (like I did), give Jim at Northland a call, he'll fix you up good with a new barrel.

[ellobo]

The copper fouling became a problem when most makers went to button broaching barrels which occured in the late 80's and early 90's. It seems from posts I have seen here that it varies all over the place, some barrels hardly copper up and others are as he said "copper mines". It is a cost thing. Button broaching is faster and cheaper while cut rifling is labor intensive and takes more time.

El Lobo

[Txhillbilly]

500 rounds you say.... well if you have a standard barrel.. then it'll foul alot faster than a stainless...

So you waited this long to see.. after 30 or 40 you should have cleaned it. I use Tiptons truly remarkable bore cleaner. I found it the fastest and the most agressive for copper.




I guess you took my thread the wrong way.I have been cleaning this barrel after about every 15-20 shots since the break in procedure I use. The accuracy really falls off after 15 rds.
I just figured that after a few hundred rounds that it would get better,but it hasn't.

I have tried just about every known copper remover on the market,and the best I've found is Montana Extreme but it doesn't even get it all out. Thanks for the replies,guys.

[flatshooter]

must be Barnes bullets causing the fouling.

[bigedp51]

Foam bore cleaner will clean your barrel better than ANYTHING on the market, the United States Military uses it on fire arms to field pieces.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5065.jpg

Use a poor mans bore scope, take a close up look at your bore and rifling with a magnifying glass to inspect a small section of your bore.


Below, cheap ba$tard bore scope. (you will be able to see clearly about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch "inside" the bore at the muzzle.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6876.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6874.jpg

What your problems might be

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-2-201084244PM.jpg

You might just have "rough" button rifling, looking at the bore with a magnifying glass, the bore will look like small waves in the rifling or small valleys and peaks, (scallops) which pick up copper easily.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/990900081.jpg

Please take my word about foam bore cleaner, I saw it used at a military depot where I worked and now foam is all I use.

Fire lapping might "fix" your problem by knocking off the high points and rough edges of the bore.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/finish_0723/index.html

Q: What do we think of Fire Lapping?

A: Firelapping does have some applications. Example being in some factory type barrels that have a rough bore finish or very rough throat and this causes the barrel to foul badly. Fire Lapping can help smooth it out and reduce some of the fouling. Depending on how it's done or how many times the barrel is firelapped lengthen of the throat can occur. Fire lapping is said to "improve" the finish of a bore, but improve is a relative term based on what the finish is to begin with.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/FAQ-c1246-wp3352.htm

http://www.stevekershawfirearms.co.uk/problembarrels.html

[BrentWin]

Try pushing a patch soaked with Lock Eze down the barrel after cleaning. It contains graphite and after the first shoot, will produce a layer of carbon that will help prevent coppering.

A bare bullet going thru a bare steel barrel will leave copper like tires spinning on hot asphalt.

[Elkbane]

I have a 300WSm that was the same way. I ran half of the Tubbs Final Finish treatment through it and that cleaned it up pretty well. And I used some JB on it. It still copper fouls more than my other barrels, but cleans up easier and accuracy doesn't fall off as fast either. I've seen no loss in accuracy due to the treatment - maybe even better.

Don't know if they make them for quarter-bores or not.
Elkbane

[Con]

Sometimes works ... clean the barrel to be spotless using alternating copper solvents and powder solvents just in case its layered. When back to bare metal (could take a few days), apply a few really decent swabs of Tetra Gun lubricant, let it sit and then patch out. It sometimes works to reduce copper fouling. Change projectiles as well ... you may be surprised at the difference in jackets.
Cheers...
Con

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have a old M-39 mosin nagant that I notice the ammount of copper left in the bore differs greatly from diffrent brands and styles of bullets.
I shoot one type/brand of bullet and it leaves hardly any copper, I shoot another brand/type and it looks like I copper plated the inside of my barrel.

[kelbro]

Hornadys copper a couple of my barrels up, Sierras do not. Barnes do not.

[Txhillbilly]

Update-
I bought 2 different brands of Foam Bore Cleaner and tried them out on the 110FLP 25/06 and my 10FCP 308 today. I sprayed it in both barrels and let it soak for 1/2hr them patched out the bores. The 308 doesn't foul much,so it cleaned up with the first try.
The 25/06 is just a PITA though,After soaking and cleaning the bore 3 times with the foam and also using a brush through the bore afterwards,it still has a load of copper in the bore.
I have ordered some Tubbs Final Finish bullets,and will give them a try before ordering a new barrel.

As far as the bullets that I load and shoot out of this rifle,I'd say that they all are about the same when it comes to the copper fouling.
I'm shooting Berger,Barnes,Hornady,Nosler,and Sierra bullets in 100,110,115,117,and 120grain.

Maybe I'm just too picky,but if my Savage 308 and 300WM will shoot 1/2moa or smaller groups the 25/06 ought to be able to do it also.And without fouling the bore to bad.

[Slowpoke Slim]

You're going to have to get the copper out of the bore first, before you try the Tubb's system. If not, you won't do any good with the Tubb's bullets at all. That Tubb's bullet needs to ride down a clean, bare steel barrel to do it's polishing. As it sits now, it's just going to ride down a layer of copper.

If 3 foam sessions didn't get all the copper out, that barrel is really bad :o :o

I have also used a chamber plug, stood the rifle up vertically, and literally filled the barrel full of Butch's and left it that way for an hour. You may try that too.

[bigedp51]

Leave the foam bore cleaner in over night and let the foam do all the work, remove the old foam and reapply until the bore comes clean. On milsurps with pitted or frosted bores it might take as many as five or more applications to remove the copper.

Your throat or bore could have a rough spot causing a copper buildup, the best part about foam is you are doing no harm or causing any mechanical cleaning damage or bore wear.

[MZ5]

I had an '06 that was as bad as or worse than what you describe. Even half a dozen foaming bore cleaner sessions wouldn't fix it. I fire lapped with the Beartooth Bullets kit, and that helped significantly, but it still fell into the 'copper mine' category.

I did fix it in the end, though. Know how? Ultimate Bore Coat. Search for it, or read up over on 24hourcampfire.com.

One app took care of it (remember that I had fire lapped first, though. I think their site is ultimatecoatingsinc.com, but I may not be remembering that correctly.

[dozernomore]

I have never had any firearm that copper fouled bad until now. My 110 FLP 25/06 is a copper mine! I broke the barrel in properly,and have shot close to 500 rds out of it.
It shoots 100gr bullets great-sub moa at 100yrds,but heavier bullets are so-so,usually 1.5-2 moa.

I have hand lapped the barrel,and it still takes hours to clean this thing,and it still has copper in the barrel.Nothing will take the copper completely out.
I was going to send it back to Savage,but figured if they put another barrel on it,I would have the same problem since it would have probably been machined with the same tooling.

Any Idea's! My 308 and 300WM have always been great shooters and don't copper foul much at all.
I'm open to suggestions.

this post really interest me,,I have a rem 700 sps varmint bbl 22-250,,and my 50 gr V-max load is near max,and my rifle coppers excesively to,I usually clean it after 20 rounds,,I just attributted my copper fouling to my load a little above hornady's recomendations,,what's your load like??a little hot??

[BillPa]

On thing to try to reduce the initial copper fouling is pretreating the bore with Colloidal graphite, ie Lock-Ease. After the first shot out of a clean barrel the powder residue provides a barrier between the bore and bullet. That powder residue layer contains a large percentage of graphite, It used in powder production, its the black stuff that clings to your powder measure. Its the reason the first shot will generally be at a lower velocity and out of the group of the following shots in the string. Most times its mistakenly referred to as the "cold barrel shot" when in fact its the clean barrel shot.

Pretreating with Colloidal graphite tends to duplicate the initial powder layer. Most times with a pretreated bore the clean barrel shot will be closer to the velocity, closer or in the group of the following shots and reduces copper fouling.

A comment from a BR shooter...


I attended Tony Boyer's School last June and when he was critiquing my cleaning regimen he asked for the Lock-Ease."

I for one will not question Tony's abilities or methods!

Pretreating is easy, apply a few drops Lock-ease n a patch, take two or three passes through the bore and allow the carrier(alcohol) to flash off then fire away. Use a bore guide,you want the graphite in the bore, not in the chamber!

Cleaning is the same as normal. Use you favorite bore cleaner.

I too have Copper Mine, a 700 VLS in 243. I swear a bullet starts out as a 6, but exits a 22! Pretreating reduces the copper fouling in that barrel quit a bit and reduces the large pile of blue patches to a few.

All my barrels are pretreated prior to shooting. BTW, I don't like oil or anything contain oils in my barrels. When oil burns it leaves behind a hard carbon. Since the temperature is at it highest just past the freebore to about an inch down the bore its a good way to form the dreaded carbon ring and build up in the gap space. Before firing I patch out with denatured alcohol then pretreat with Lock-Ease.

It may not completely eliminate copper fouling, but it certainly will help reduce it in all but those barrels rifled with a rattail file!


Bill