Copper Fouling Problem

[Kawabuggy]

I've mentioned this before, but it bears mentioning again now that I've read all of the posts discussing how to remove copper with the various foaming cleaners, and copper removers.

I can't stress how EASY copper removal is if you use an electronic cleaner. I built one using 2 "C" batteries, and other parts from Radio Shack (less than $10). The electronic cleaner takes all the work out of copper removal. Think Outers Foul Out at a fraction of the price.

Now that I built my cleaner, I can set a gun up and have it down to bare-steel in 15 minutes. I don't care how much copper/lead/carbon fouling is in that barrel-within 15 minutes it will be as clean as the day it was manufactured (probably cleaner). And, while the barrel is being cleaned, you are free to do other stuff like clean & oil the bolt.

I was hesitant at first to try one, but once I built mine-I gave all of my copper cleaners away. KG-12 (best I had tried), Blue Wonder, Hoppes Copper Remover, and about 3 others I can't remember the name of were given away.

Here is the link if you want to give it a shot: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

You don't have to follow the plans exactly as they are laid out on that site. I bought a dual "C" battery holder, alligator clips, and then soldered 2 ft. sections of wire between the clips & battery holder. You can get the metal rod from Home Depot. I use a foam ear plug in the chamber end for a plug. On the rod I'll wrap a little painters tape around it about every 6" to keep the rod centered, and keep it from shorting out to the barrel. Have yet to find a bore that can't be cleaned in 15 minutes or less this way.

Now of course this does not address why the OP's bore is leaving copper in the first place. I have a Savage 12FV that is real quick to coat the bore in copper. You can physically see the "waves" in the rifling. It came from the factory that way, and it shoots like no other rifle I have ever handled so I don't intend to do anything different. I shoot it, it coppers, I use the electronic cleaner & all is well. If yours is leaving copper and is not accurate then you need to try something to get it to shoot better. At least I had an idea about getting the copper out. Can't offer much on the better accuracy front.

[Larry in SD]

I have a SPS .308 that is at least as bad as you describe. I would shoot 20 rounds and spend up to 3 cleaning sessions of 2 hours each to get it totally clean. I tried every bore cleaner, including foaming bore cleaners I could get my hands on. In the end the only thing that has worked is Barnes CR-10.

I too broke my barrel in using my usual 50 round barrel break in procedure. After I had about 150 rounds through my barrel I ordered a Tubbs Final Finish Kit. After shooting the first 10 rounds I wondered what I had gotten myself into as after an hour and a half of cleaning it was not clean. Once I finally got it clean I proceded to step 2 etc. Buy the time I finished with the Tubbs Final Finish Kit I could totally clean my barrel in 20 - 30 minutes start to finish.

I then put another 50 rounds through it and things stayed about the same but my accuracy improved.

I then purchased Microlon Gun Juice per a local gunsmiths recommendations and treated my bore with the Gun Juice. After treating with Gun Juice once again I saw a slight improvement in accuracy, and now after 20 rounds I can totally clean my barrel in 15 - 20 minutes.

I had polished my bore with Flitz Metal Polish a few times and actually used a patch coated with Flitz Metal Polish with Barnes CR-10 dribbled on top of the Flitz to clean the barrel. In fact before the Tubbs Final Finish Treatment that was the only way I could get it totally clean. I had my lands like a mirror but was not getting the bottom of the grooves polished. They looked like a bad washboard road, well until the Tubbs Final Finish Treatment that is.

I too had never seen a barrel fould like this one.

Larry

[Txhillbilly]

You're going to have to get the copper out of the bore first, before you try the Tubb's system. If not, you won't do any good with the Tubb's bullets at all. That Tubb's bullet needs to ride down a clean, bare steel barrel to do it's polishing. As it sits now, it's just going to ride down a layer of copper.

If 3 foam sessions didn't get all the copper out, that barrel is really bad :o :o

I have also used a chamber plug, stood the rifle up vertically, and literally filled the barrel full of Butch's and left it that way for an hour. You may try that too.


Slowpoke,I'm well aware that I will have to get the barrel clean before I use the Final Finish bullets.I've only been shooting guns for close to 40yrs,so I don't think I'm a novice at this game.
It just blows my mind that a gun like this copper fouls so bad.I have close to 100 firearms,and have never had a rifle do this so severe. The sad thing is that I had the Savage Custom Shop put this rifle together,since they discontinued the 110FLP in 25/06 a couple years ago.
I just can't believe that barrels like this are passed by any kind of inspection from Savage.

Kawabuggy,Thanks for the link for the homemade electric cleaning rod.I'll have to put one together and try it out.

[Txhillbilly]

Well I've put together/tried the Electric Bore Cleaner. It works great!
I also loaded and shot all 50 Tubb's Final Finish bullets through the rifle. Man,This is a real PIA,on a copper fouling rifle like this,but I must say,The Tubb's system does work.
The rifle still copper fouls a little,but nothing like it did before. I can clean it in minutes,instead of days.

Before,It only liked to shoot 100gr bullets.Now it will shoot just about anything.

100gr Sierra Gameking,
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/036-1.jpg

115gr Nosler CT Silvertip,
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/033-1.jpg
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/035.jpg

[Txhillbilly]

117gr Hornady SST,
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/028-1.jpg

120gr Hornady HP Interlock,
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/023-2.jpg

Thanks for your help,guys. Problems like these are a pain to get a fix on,but with all the different idea's people have,they can get solved.

[AVanGorder]

Sell it and move on.

Adrian

[Txhillbilly]

Sell it and move on.

Adrian


And just why would I want to do that?

It amazes me the amount of smartazzes there are on this forum!

[AVanGorder]

Sell it and move on.

Adrian


And just why would I want to do that?

It amazes me the amount of smartazzes there are on this forum!

I didn't mean to offend you and perhaps I should have explained a little more. What I was thinking, in my own mind, was that if a gun requires so much work to make it shoot, or to keep it shooting right, it just isn't worth it to me.

Adrian

[billt]

Try this stuff. It leaves all other copper cleaners in the dust. The best part is it contains zero Ammonia, and won't hurt your barrel. Bill T.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=225250

[358Hammer]

In this thread there is a picture of a scalloped bore. I purchased a 338 factory barrel a year ago on here. The bore was twice as bad as the picture on here. Not wanting to pawn the garbage off to another I sent it to Savage. They sent it back to me saying quit using a borescope or magnifying glass to look inside.
For a long time I just left the barrel in a drawer before I finally sent it to a barrel maker to see if they could lap it so I did not have those stupid cleaning problems.

I am happy to say that barrel cleaned up very nicely and is a real shooter. I had the Nitride treatment done as well and I have yet to clean the barrel after about a hundred rounds.

In my humble opinion. If you pay money for a item, why should you or I have to pay more money or time in making it function correctly?

Neal

[DannoBoone]

Update-
I bought 2 different brands of Foam Bore Cleaner and tried them out on the 110FLP 25/06 and my 10FCP 308 today. I sprayed it in both barrels and let it soak for 1/2hr them patched out the bores. The 308 doesn't foul much,so it cleaned up with the first try.
The 25/06 is just a PITA though,After soaking and cleaning the bore 3 times with the foam and also using a brush through the bore afterwards,it still has a load of copper in the bore.
I have ordered some Tubbs Final Finish bullets,and will give them a try before ordering a new barrel.

As far as the bullets that I load and shoot out of this rifle,I'd say that they all are about the same when it comes to the copper fouling.
I'm shooting Berger,Barnes,Hornady,Nosler,and Sierra bullets in 100,110,115,117,and 120grain.

Maybe I'm just too picky,but if my Savage 308 and 300WM will shoot 1/2moa or smaller groups the 25/06 ought to be able to do it also.And without fouling the bore to bad.


You can safely leave most types of foam cleaners such as Wipeout in the barrel overnight, and they get a deeper cleaning. When
breaking in my .25-06 112 VLP, it took three nights of doing so until it got to the 50 or 60th round. Starting out, it usually got MOA
with 75-100gr bullets. It took awhile to do so with the 115gr Berger VLD's. I also have a couple of relatively new Mod 12 VLP's in
.243 and .22-250. The .243 was quite a bit better, and the .22-250 was a lot better during break-in to clean.

If it were me, I'd give Joe DeGrande at Customer Service a call prior to doing the Tubb's Final treatment. He has treated me more
than fair. It may be a matter of "all bets are off" after fire lapping, though.

[DannoBoone]

Sorry about the out dated above post. Didn't notice there was a second
page. :-[

[p5200]

Try this stuff. It leaves all other copper cleaners in the dust. The best part is it contains zero Ammonia, and won't hurt your barrel. Bill T.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=225250
Guess I got lucky finding a 16oz. bottle for $18.99 locally. And it does do an excelent, job of cleaning! :)

[billt]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=225250
Guess I got lucky finding a 16oz. bottle for $18.99 locally. And it does do an excelent, job of cleaning! :)


Bore Tech Eliminator is amazing stuff. After I got it, I put a wet patch of it down the bores of my rifles I thought were clean with Sweet's, and Outers Foaming Bore Cleaner, and the patches came out GREEN! Bore Tech Eliminator is now all I use. It's got Ammonia based copper cleaners beat 11 ways to Sunday! I gave my Sweet's to a guy at our local club. I have no further use for it. Bill T.

[navymrchief]

Just my 2 cents. I tried three different, foam bore cleaners until I got to "Wipe Out" which I now use, exclusively, on all my rifles that copper. I have a .338-06 E.R Shaw and a .416 Taylor Shilen (both chrome moly barrels) that are the worst for me. But after a couple, to sometimes 3 or four, applications of the Wipe Out, I eventually get all the copper out. The same company also make an accelerator that helps the cleaner to work even a little better. I always break in my barrels and never shoot any of my "broken in" barrels more than 15-20 shots without running a solvent patch and nylon brush through them while at the range. As mentioned, by one of the other posters, I have much less problems removing copper from all of my SS barrels.

[longpoker]

After trying all most every cleaning solvents on the market, I finally settled on KG1,KG2,KG12 and KG3. I do use patch out as my first solvent followed by KG1,KG12 if needed or then followed up with KG2,KG3 in that order.
This method works best for me. I have tried Bore Tech CU2+copper remover and Bore Tech Carbon remover,both work well. You need a lot of patches but they come out clean. I will use both a bronze brush and nylon ass needed. ;)