Axis trigger and sear just surface hardened?

[daviscustom]

Monkeying around with my axis trigger trying to see what I could do with it before I buy a replacement. I decided to relieve the curve on the top of the trigger to keep the sear from rubbing after it brakes.....probably not even an issue now that I look at it, but that was the wild hair I was chasing none the less...... :redface-new:

One thing led to another and while grinding the extra relief on my belt grinder I got into the sear engagement on one side just a little, so I decided at that point I was committed and went ahead and ground down the engagement just a little to square it up across the top. Anyway, it took a lot of messing around to get everything straightened out, but it seems to be good. Wondering if I need to surface harden the sear and trigger surfaces or if they are heat treated all the way through?

Thinking I have heard in the past that many are just surface hardened....appears that at least the sear may be normally heat treated and be ok as is. The front face on the trigger where the sear engages has had very little done to it...just a little honing to clean it up, so I am hoping it won't have to be casehardened.

[FW Conch]

I have done something similar to several old Stevens triggers, that were so bad in "stock" condition that I considered them useless, so I decided I had nothing to loose if I ruined them. I ground off the black, re blacked with Magic Marker, and ground off 3 times until I could get the trigger to break properly. I then lubed the surfaces with #2 pencil lead. That was several years ago, and I have not detected any wear on the surfaces.

If you just keep a eye on what you have done, any wear will show up easily enough. I think maybe surface hardening may be deeper than many of us suspect, if in fact, it is needed at all?

Good Luck-and let us know how it works out for you.......Jim

[Westcliffe01]

You should NEVER be using a belt sander on a trigger or sear. Thats pretty close to wanton destruction. Trigger jobs need fine adjustments and keeping everything straight. You want to use a tool that does anything SLOWLY.

Go to use-enco.com and buy a small collection of honing stones. They call then toolroom finishing sticks http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRAR?PMSECT=0000000186

For trigger work just get "Medium" and "Ultra fine" There are many geometries available, but rectangular, square and diamond are the most useful for sear surfaces.

A smith will always use a "stoning fixture" that holds the stone and trigger in the proper alognment and the stone at the right angle to the surface being stoned.

A trigger is a safety critical item. Be fully aware that if not done right, you could kill yourself or someone else. Do you know how to fully test a trigger so that you know if it will fire if the rifle is bumped of after you release the safety ?

Generally, triggers today are plasma nitrided to produce the hard wear surface since it allows cheaper material to be used for the trigger. The plasma nitriding is a thin layer (in essence like case hardening) so to answer your question, yes, it is quite likely that you have ruined the wear surfaces.

Hopefully you know that Savage will not sell you a replacement trigger, but only to a gunsmith, so at this stage, it is highly recommended that you get a Timney or Rifle Basix trigger to put on your rifle and keep the one you have as a back up for "emergencies".

[daviscustom]

As I said to begin with, I was not intending to do anything to the sear engagement.

I was adding a 10x24 set screw in the back hole of the trigger with the intent of installing a lighter spring and using the set screw for overtravel adjustment. While adjusting the overtravel, it appeared to me that with trigger not traveling as far out of the way (past the breaking point) would create a situation where the sear might rub on the curved face of the trigger behind the sear engagement.....so I was going to relieve that curved area a little deeper so everything would clear and I could keep the overtravel adjusted fairly close.

I was foolish enough to hold the trigger so that the trigger engagement was facing away from me when I started grinding, and promptly got too close to the edge. It was not hard to re-establish a square corner, and I have tested the safety and used a deadblow mallet on the back of the bolt to check it for impact sensitivity.

It is by the way, a Wilton Square Wheel belt grinder...not a belt sander, and I am quite capable of reshaping the sear engagement though that is not what I set out to do. I am also capable of case hardening the part, which is why I was asking if anyone knew if it was just surface hardened.


Jard is the most economical aftermarket trigger option I have found, does anyone have any experience with them?

[Westcliffe01]

I was not aware of the Jard trigger. It seems that you do not just get a trigger, you get a trigger and a sear. That probably makes it worthy of investigation. The Timney is $104 at Midway. I think. The SSS Competiton trigger is $110 at Brownells and that is what I was planning to try next since my impression of the Rifle Basix Sav 2 trigger was unfavorable, and that is saying it politely...

[cranebird]

As I said to begin with, I was not intending to do anything to the sear engagement.

I was adding a 10x24 set screw in the back hole of the trigger with the intent of installing a lighter spring and using the set screw for overtravel adjustment. While adjusting the overtravel, it appeared to me that with trigger not traveling as far out of the way (past the breaking point) would create a situation where the sear might rub on the curved face of the trigger behind the sear engagement.....so I was going to relieve that curved area a little deeper so everything would clear and I could keep the overtravel adjusted fairly close.

I was foolish enough to hold the trigger so that the trigger engagement was facing away from me when I started grinding, and promptly got too close to the edge. It was not hard to re-establish a square corner, and I have tested the safety and used a deadblow mallet on the back of the bolt to check it for impact sensitivity.

It is by the way, a Wilton Square Wheel belt grinder...not a belt sander, and I am quite capable of reshaping the sear engagement though that is not what I set out to do. I am also capable of case hardening the part, which is why I was asking if anyone knew if it was just surface hardened.


Jard is the most economical aftermarket trigger option I have found, does anyone have any experience with them?

I could be wrong but I'm thinking the setscrew ahead of the trigger spring adjusts the over travel of the trigger ?

[daviscustom]

The set screw in front of the two diameter spring is the adjustment for the safety.

I was testing out someones mod that involved removing the spring that screws down into the last hole and replacing it with a 3/4" long set screw and a spring that will slide over the set screw.....hopefully reducing the trigger pull and allowing overtravel adjustment of the trigger.

Maybe I was unclear in the way I explained myself, but if you adjust the overtravel to just allow the trigger to break, it stops the travel of the trigger at a point where the sear swings very close over the top of the trigger and I thought it might drag......so that is why I was going to take a little off that curve behind the notch in the trigger.

The trigger I ended up with after my little escapade is actually better then it was, but I don't own a pull gauge so I don't know how much better it is......I just put the original spring back in and screwed it down into the hole as far as I could and it seems quite a bit better then it was.

I will probably get the Jard trigger since it does come with the sear too, but I will wait until I get a little money set back for it. I think I have most everything I need for my bullpup build, but I want to keep a little reserve cash just in case.

[cranebird]

The set screw in front of the two diameter spring is the adjustment for the safety



What is there to adjust on the safety ? It does not adjust the distance the selector switch travels.It will block the safety switch if the safety screw is set too tight . Look through the bottom left hand column and note what is said for the safety screw function.

http://www.gunblast.com/Timney-Axis.htm

[daviscustom]

I will have to look at it tonight, but I would think that that set screw has to be set in a pretty narrow range for the safety to function...and if you adjust it to control overtravel you may not allow the safety to in engage. The link you provided clearly says that is where you adjust overtravel though so I will look it over more closely when I get off work.

[cranebird]

Yes, it is important to engage the safety switch on and then set the setscrew to the safety switch slide and then back it off 1/6 of a turn. you can fire the trigger by selecting the safety to on if the screw is adjusted to tight by not having the safety engaged when adjusting the set screw.

[daviscustom]

It has been a very busy day and I haven't gotten to take a look yet, but my point is that if you set that set screw so the safety functions properly and then turn the safety off, you are stuck with whatever overtravel you have when the trigger breaks.....so that doesn't really fill the bill as overtravel adjustment as I understand it. I would like to adjust the trigger so that it breaks and only moves slightly past the break point. If that set screw has to be set in one certain spot for the safety to function properly, then how is there overtravel adjustment with the same screw?


OK after looking at it....I am sticking with my original statement, the set screw next to the two diam. spring on the Axis trigger is adjusted to make the safety function properly and left there..... there is no overtravel adjustment (with that set screw) I can see unless you are doing without your safety. Maybe the Timney trigger is made different.

[cranebird]

OK after looking at it....I am sticking with my original statement, the set screw next to the two diam. spring on the Axis trigger is adjusted to make the safety function properly and left there..... there is no overtravel adjustment (with that set screw) I can see unless you are doing without your safety. Maybe the Timney trigger is made different.

I have three pictures to post but I suspect you already have your mind made up and that is ok but I want to post the pictures and explain what I think how this thing works as a over travel adjustment. http://s20.postimg.org/okrzbmdt9/DSCN2080.jpg

Do you see how when the safety is on the set screw only sits on a portion of the safety switch slide ? At first I said WTH ? The Axis is so cheap they didn't even design the setscrew to sit all of the way underneath the safety slide.

http://s20.postimg.org/mu8ya4wa5/DSCN2070.jpg

Notice how it sits when the safety is off. The sear tension allows the safety screw to fall past the safety slide. Under motion does it arc forward and make contact with the safety slide ? If it does, it should eliminate the over travel in the trigger system.
http://s20.postimg.org/7msyps4fh/DSCN2006.jpg

Why is the safety selector designed to move further ahead than where it is at with the safety off ? Is it so the safety screw can cam off and push the safety slide forward until the trigger sear is able to release ?Maybe I am reaching for I believe it does control the over travel.

[daviscustom]

It is very hard to see, but yes, it appears that because of it's location relative to the end of the safety, it does limit the overtravel some....at least that is where the trigger hits when it runs out of travel.....but if you try to adjust the overtravel with that screw you will make your safety inoperable. So yes it does limit overtravel, but I don't see how anyone can legitimately say that screw is an overtravel adjustment,because if you use it to adjust overtravel instead of the safety....then you will have no safety.

Maybe you are not familiar with an overtravel adjustment......normally it would be adjustable so that the trigger only has enough travel to reliably break and that is as far as it goes.....this example doesn't really do that...though yes it is the limiting factor in the trigger overtravel on this trigger, it doesn't do much to eliminate overtravel.

[cranebird]

It's ok that your not buying into it . You stated that you were getting the Jard trigger system but apparently you failed to read its installation instructions or you would have known step 14 of the 17 step instructions basically says the same thing.

http://www.jardinc.com/images/stories/manuals/savage.pdf

[short round]

Jard will not work on Axis, with out some serious modification.

[daviscustom]

Yes after looking a little closer, it looks like the Jard sear is not for an Axis, so it would be crap shoot ordering it. It looks like the middle set screw is farther back and may not clear the safety with it in either position. They don't get specific about what it will work on.....just says Savage centerfire, but I don't think I'm going to order one just to see if I can make it work.

Ok cranebird, it looks like you have taken the locking compound off the set screw in question, so you should be able to test your theory. Can you adjust that screw so that the overtravel is eliminated and the safety still works? Would you agree that for it to be a true overtravel adjustment, the trigger should be able to be adjusted so that rearward travel is stopped just past the breaking point?.....and the safety still should work?......can you adjust that set screw to fulfill these criteria?

I am willing to accept that it works....if it does work. This is not something that has to be taken on faith, you have the ability to prove to yourself if it works. You are the one that is convinced it will work....have you tried it?

I will be controlling overtravel in the linkage that actuates the trigger in my bullpup, so I just want the safety to work.

[cranebird]

Yes after looking a little closer, it looks like the Jard sear is not for an Axis, so it would be crap shoot ordering it. It looks like the middle set screw is farther back and may not clear the safety with it in either position. They don't get specific about what it will work on.....just says Savage centerfire, but I don't think I'm going to order one just to see if I can make it work.

Ok cranebird, it looks like you have taken the locking compound off the set screw in question, so you should be able to test your theory. Can you adjust that screw so that the overtravel is eliminated and the safety still works? Would you agree that for it to be a true overtravel adjustment, the trigger should be able to be adjusted so that rearward travel is stopped just past the breaking point?.....and the safety still should work?......can you adjust that set screw to fulfill these criteria?

I am willing to accept that it works....if it does work. This is not something that has to be taken on faith, you have the ability to prove to yourself if it works. You are the one that is convinced it will work....have you tried it?

I will be controlling overtravel in the linkage that actuates the trigger in my bullpup, so I just want the safety to work.

You might not believe how many hours I've been messing with this trigger system from throwing a snap cap in it and messing with it to see what can be done to improve it since it was basically down from not having a workable scope for it. I was going to mill the pin hole and install a abec bearing from which it would pivot on when I hit a trigger pull barrier in which I couldn't overcome from polishing, switching other components but I never got that far.I then began shimming the sear notch which broke the barrier and then too weak of a trigger spring that compressed made the gun fail to fire so my advice is to buy a accutrigger or an Timney or a Basix that is designed to drop in and forget the old system and be done with it. I had to search to find that the safety screw actually does as I thought and there was proof. Who am I to say you would get the same results if I were not there to know you were adjusting it properly ? Buy the Drop in trigger and move forward.....

[daviscustom]

I am willing to believe that it can be made to work if you tell us that you got it to work and show us how you did it. I can only assume that you couldn't make it work to prove your theory.

I may end up installing an aftermarket trigger some day, but I will likely pursue cheaper options to improve what I have first. I have made shims to take the side to side play out of the trigger and reduced the sear engagement on mine and so far the trigger is better then it was. I would like to find one of the old savage triggers that has the adjustment for sear engagement and play with one of those a little.

[cranebird]

you do know what happens when you assume something?

[daviscustom]

Well I was hoping that if you were able to prove your theory, you would just do it, instead of just accusing me of being an overtravel adjustment denier.


Why don't the rest of you that are just sitting back with your popcorn chime in on the subject?! :frusty:

I think cranebird just likes to find something to argue about for entertainment....he doesn't seem to have any interest in proving what he claims.