Why are so few target guns built on Savage Actions

[300magman]

I was doing some reading over on AccurateShooter.com and from what I can tell Savage doesn't have much of a following amoung target shooters, whether it be 100 & 200 yard benchrest or 1000 yard long range....in fact under their section of "recommended actions by use" savage is only listed once, and that is under varminting.
So I thought this would be a good place to ask, just what is it about savage actions that fall short of being competition grade? Could a T&T target action from SSS come close to being competitive or does it fall a mile short?

[Dirk]

That information is out of date and undoubtedly biased.

[tenwalker]

From what I have heard Savage rifles and actions are among the best out there. And as far as an out of the box shooter they are at the top from what I have heard.

[ICUDIEN]

From what I have heard Savage rifles and actions are among the best out there. And as far as an out of the box shooter they are at the top from what I have heard.


Hey man, no offense but I think he is talking about a higher standard of accuracy then "out of the box".

[300magman]

^^^^ Yes, indeed I am...perhaps not world class competition, but I certainly had regional events in mind where most shooters will be sporting at least some level of custom rifle.

[savageboy]

I have been doing pretty well at 1000yd F class w/ a mod. 10 action, T&T'd, Rifle Basix 2 trigger, Shilen barrel, sss lug, etc. However, I am doing what I consider to be my ultimate "big boy" target build: A brand new Target Action, T&T'd, EVO trigger, SSS bolt handle, PTG Oversized Fluted bolt, etc. W/ a No nut 6brx gain twist(8.7-8.3") barrel. All put together by record setting builder Mike Davis here in NC. He built Sam Hall's rifles, etc.
We are using his reamer that gives .112 or so freebore/ throating,etc. so it should be as good as it can get w/ a Savage Action. Using a SSS recoil lug, SSS LRBR stock w/ adj comb, Ken Ferrel Base, Burris Zee Rings w/ inserts and a Nightforce 12-42x NP2DD scope. W/ proper load dev. it should be all a Savage can be.
In hind site, w/ all the stuff I have done to this action, I could have done a Barnard, Stiller, etc. custom action for about the same money. I would have still had more in the stock and stock work w/ the custom action. But if I ever go to sell it, the custom would hold more value though.
It won't be done for quite a while though, but I will give a full report when it is done. I will be competing w/ my 260AI most of this year though.

[Smokepole]

If you take a closer look, Savage is the only mass production action maker w an action featured in their 'custom action' page. No other mass manufacturer offers anything of the sort. The actions it is compared to cost about twice as much.

[82boy]

Well I will try to answer your question the best I can. To answer your question YES a Savage is more than able to compete with high dollar actions and be competitive in both short range, and long range benchrest shooting. To start out there is a difference in long range and short range benchrest and the equipment that is used. Most people that compete with a Savage compete in long range. This is a growing newer sport, that the shooters are more open minded, and willing to try new things.

The problem with short range IBS/NBRSA benchrest shooting is this is truly a monkey see monkey do discipline. If Tony Boyer does it everyone else has to. Tony Boyer shoots what is given to him. A factory Savage would be hard to compete with, but one that has been tuned by a quality gunsmith is able to do well. Until someone wins with a Savage, the naysayers will say that it can not be done, The problem is No top notch shooter would be willing to put beside there custom action to prove a point.

The main downside to this type of shooting (IBS/NBRSA short range) is the lack of quality aftermarket parts. Up until the last couple of years there was no 2 oz trigger available for a Savage, this was the main killer. Thanks to SSS there is parts to make the guns competitive, but unfortunately there is no other aftermarket parts makers doing the same things. Remington has had top notch parts for many years, and this is why they dominate the sport. Every custom action (Bat,Panda,Nesieka,Hall,Stiller,ETC) is a Remington 700 clone, and Dave Kiff makes all the bolts. The first benchrest guns were Remington's. For a Remington 2oz trigger you have Shilen, Jewel, Kelby, and many other makes. The other problem is lack of good stocks, but it can be done using an un-inletted Remington stock, and having it inletted by a gunsmith for a Savage.

The other reason you don't see a lot of Savages, is there is still the thinking that they are cheap junk among the gun communities. It wasn't until Savage released the accu-trigger that majority of people took a second look at Savage, and decided that the guns was a good design. For many years people never shot Savages but classified them as junk do to there low cost. Ever since the accu-trigger Savage's sales have sored, and the price has increased considerably, and people have now come to except the savage, even though very little has changed in the gun since its debut in 1958.

To finish your question SSS has built a few IBS/NBRSA competitive rifles, that in final form will rival against higher end custom actions. The tuned Savage will shoot just as good, and the actions feel just as smooth. For comparison, most people I shoot with shot Bats, I own a Bat. In comparison my SSS worked Savage is just as smooth, and has an easier bolt lift than my two lug Bat. I have a friend that owns two Bats, and a SSS built Savage all outfitted exactly the same, (Krieger barrel, TMBR stock, Leupold, comp 45 scope) and his Savage shoots just as good as his two Bats.

I end my thoughts with this. I have added a Target I shot a couple of weeks ago, with a SSS built 6 PPC Savage. The target measures at .307 with the flier. (.114 without the flyer.) This is a 5 shoot 100 yard group, just messing around, no wind flags used, and the target was shot in a hurry. The gun shoots much, much, better than this. I think this speaks for its self.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-1.jpg

[Dirk]

Patrick,

That's some pretty fine shooting. I think people make too much of the "accuracy" of an action. That's just balderdash! After all, an action is just the 'holder' for the barrel and trigger.
My friend Kent Reeve was the 2006 Long Range Champion at the National Matches at Camp Perry and he used a basically stock Mauser 98 single shot action chambered in .300 Win Mag. Here is a decription in his own words....

"Interarms single shot Mauser, cost $165 for the action back in 1992-1993 timeframe. Factory trigger. I think it was trued and squared (a benchrest gunsmith did original barrel) but can't remember for sure.

Current barrel is only the second barrel that has ever been on it. I mostly shoot a Palma rifle at LR matches so it doesn't get much use.

The barrel and bedding are more important factors on a LR rifle than the brand of action IMHO."

[Smokepole]

IMO, the worst thing going for the Savage, and probably the reason it isn't used more than it is, is the trigger system. It plain stinks beside anything else out there. Yes, it works, and in a lot of cases it works well. The trouble is that it is built from stamped parts w allowances for bad tolerance stack. It's great for mass production. When someone wants to get serious, it's a pain. The cocking button probably has a much broader range of location in the cocked position than say a Rem or Howa, etc. That makes it necessary to have a full T&T to get a good trigger (which is exactly what SSS has to do). Whereas, on other mainstream production actions the trigger assembly is much more modular and the cocking pins'/firing pins' positions are much more nailed down. That allows aftermarket folks to make equally modular, 'drop in' assemblies that plain rock out of the box. By the time you machined a Savage to accept some type of really modular trigger/sear combo for another rifle, you might as well just modify a Remmy to accept a floating bolt head because it would be cheaper/easier.

[82boy]

Patrick,
That's some pretty fine shooting. I think people make too much of the "accuracy" of an action. That's just balderdash! After all, an action is just the 'holder' for the barrel and trigger.


Dirk, Thank you for the compliment. (Your making my head swell.) When you have a gun put together right, I think anyone can shoot well, that gun is literally just point and shoot.

On the action, I could not say it any better. Past holding the trigger and the sight, it don't matter, the barrel and the scope are the two most important pieces. Then you have the people that worry about rigidity, and again the action don't make the rifle, it is the barrel. I would also say that the stock plays an important role, it makes shooting groups easier, but a bad stock will still shoot good, it just takes more concentration.

[cwop]

if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.

sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!

sort of too bad

bob

[possum1]

I have no idea or knowledge about competition shooting but I have to throw my 2 cents in. My opinion is competitors think the most dollars they can spend the better the tools of the trade are.

[Dirk]

if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.

sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!

sort of too bad

bob

You didn't specify what type of competition. Don't just lump them all together. For f-class, for example, you can compete at an international level with an out of the box Savage F-class rifle for under 2K with the scope! Ask Monte Milinek.

[82boy]

if you are going to compete you will spend between 2 and 5k on your rig probably custom to boot.
sorry this is just the way it is. go look at the rimfire boys no one is shooting stock anymore!!!
sort of too bad
bob


Bob is right, and points out another good point. Benchrest is an expensive game, once you bought a rest, scope, and rig your going to have some serious money into it.

My problem is this Savage is pricing them selves out of the market. For example, why can they sell a complete Stevens 200 for around $300 dollars but a target action that starts out as the same receiver and requires less machining cost $450 to $550 dollars? (Going by dealer selling price on gun broker, and NSS) Savage inflates the price of a gun with an accu-trigger by around $100 bucks, and if you look at an accu-trigger it should not cost them anymore money to make.

Lets say you wanted to build a low price benchrest gun, and you wanted something with a right bolt, and a left eject, It cost the same to build a Savage as it does to buy a custom action. I will show you what I mean, On barrel, stock and scope cost they would be the same because of the same components.

To start lets say you bought a dual port action from Jim Briggs (A person who his profit margin is so low I don't know how he makes a single cent.) at $475. ( I will not add shipping or FFl fees because that would also be included into any action.) Now this action will need timed and trued, and a better trigger, so you send it off to SSS for an evolution trigger and a T&t job at a bargain price of $300 with shipping back to you. Now you have $775 into the action. The action come with the BT bolt handle which is too heavy for a serious trigger, so you pop for an SSS at $40 bucks now you have $815. You will need small parts of a trigger guard at $22 bucks, a set of rings (let go with Talley's, they are about the only ring that is light enough to keep it in weight, and they are cheaper than others.) for $47 dollars, now you have $884 into your action. Now you have additional parts such as a recoil lug at $28 bringing the total up to $912, and you don't have a barrel nut, or action screws.

You can buy a Stiller viper for $900 and it includes everything you need, except the trigger and a Shilen is around $100 bucks, a jewel is around $170. Now lets say you want to tighten up the bolt in your Savage so that it feels like a custom you need to give Pacific tool and gauge around $125 bucks for a bolt body, and lets say you want it fluted like the custom action you will have even more money into it.

What it all comes down to is you can build a Savage for around $2000 dollars that would be competitive, but you can also build a Stiller, or buy a used Bat, or Panda for around the same money. This is why most people don't attempt to go the Savage route, the other way is proven. If Savage would lower the price of the target action it would make this option more feasible. Savage could also offer a competitive gun at a lower price that would fill this bill, but they will not because there bread and butter is hunting rifles. The prices could be better controled if the starting action was a Stevens, but you would not have a left feed right eject.

[82boy]

For f-class, for example, you can compete at an international level with an out of the box Savage F-class rifle for under 2K with the scope! Ask Monte Milinek.


Dirk is right in another point, it depends on what type of competition you are referring to. Yes savage has done very well in F class, with a box stock rifle.

I would argue that building a long range IBS gun (600 and 1000 yard) is cheaper than building a IBS/NBRSA short range (100,200 and 300 yards) gun. (Mostly due to weight differences, short range light gun weighs at 10.5 a long range light gun weighs in at 17 lbs.) I would say that it a person should be able to build a long range gun for 2k including scope.

[Joe O]

I think it's just that.The action leaves allot to be desired.Shooting sub 1/2 MOA groups isn't the only reason to own a particular gun.If you pull the trigger and it don't go bang,it matters little whether its a Holland and Holland or a JC Higgins from Sears.I have a new Savage LRPV .204 Savage.I scoped it,bore sighted it with the windage screws on the rear Burris base and shot it at 50 yards,with FED factory 39gr Sie.It shot 15" low.The elevation was checked to confirm it was centered,so I cranked it up to check the tracking,and it was fine.I installed the +/-10 inserts, front and rear and gained 10" in elevation,and finished with the scope adjustment.It shot a nice group and later shot a .333 with the Fed ammo at 100 yards.My reloads shot .178 after the cases were used a couple times.This was ,out of the box,no tuning,and trigger was 15oz.It only ejected 30% of the cases.The bigest problem was extreme cratering of the primers.No pressure,just a pin too small for the bolt opening.After corresponding with customr service and sending pictures of the factory primers (Hornady cases),they ordered UPS to pick up the gun the next day.I sent the paperwork with the two problems.They had their Palama shop install a new bolt head and check the head space.I had left the scope bases on,so only had to turn the scope on and check the windage.Shot at 75 yards 10 rounds to check primer strikes,and ejection.Primers were 95% better than before but it didn't eject (all parts new in the bolt head.There is less slop in the head recess and the ejector felt stronger.It ejected with authority,but only 3 out of the ten rounds.So I call Lisa at SSS and have her send a 1/2 doz .140 detent balls.That didn't take care of it.I called Effie at savage(very nice gal)and asked for ,and she would send me two extractors.I was disapointed that I didn't get them in the mail today,and I was getting ready to call Savage when the UPS truck pulls up and the guy has a fairly big box 12x8x3".I couldn't imagine it being from Savage,but it was.Well they sent two of each parts for the extractor and ejector,plus a nice embrosed leather rifle carry sling and two embroirdered Savage patches.I painted my stock after the gun returned and noticed that the action screws were barely finger tight when I removed the stock.They must have adjusted the trigger down to 9oz as I sent it set at 15oz.What would you think about a gun that you set up with quality mounts,shooting that low at 50 yards?I still need to solve the ejection problem,as it drops the case as soon as it clears the camber,regardless whether or not the bolt is moved slow or fast.To quote a local rifle builder,"you can make a zip gun shoot small groups"....OR Savage should lower the price to fit the quality.

[Smokepole]

I agree on the price definitely.

[RangerRob]

I believe a lot has to do with the "I drive a Mercedes" thought process. Chances are half the people that shoot custom actions can't out shoot a factory Savage in capable hands. But they "want" the best/most expensive, the most obnoxious paint schemes, blah, blah blah. Truth is, Savage has rather sloppy machining on my new 12F. The action has huge mill marks, and the OD of the action looks a lot like a golf ball. That being said, it still will shoot outstanding. Just not as pretty doing it. ;)

[dcloco]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>What would you think about a gun that you set up with quality mounts,shooting that low at 50 yards?I still need to solve the ejection problem,as it drops the case as soon as it clears the camber,regardless whether or not the bolt is moved slow or fast.To quote a local rifle builder,"you can make a zip gun shoot small groups"....OR Savage should lower the price to fit the quality.


Pull the ejector spring and lengthen it, just a touch, by pulling on the spring.

Also, make sure the ejector travels in the bore of the bolt head freely, without the spring installed.